From a.rosta@v21.me.uk Tue Jul 27 15:16:06 2004
Return-Path: <a.rosta@v21.me.uk>
X-Sender: a.rosta@v21.me.uk
X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com
Received: (qmail 58627 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2004 22:16:06 -0000
Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216)
  by m16.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Jul 2004 22:16:06 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO heineken.flexi-surf.co.uk) (62.41.128.20)
  by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Jul 2004 22:16:06 -0000
Received: from oemcomputer (host81-7-53-70.surfport24.v21.co.uk [81.7.53.70])
	by heineken.flexi-surf.co.uk (8.11.6/8.11.6) with SMTP id i6RLVee32024
	for <lojban@yahoogroups.com>; Tue, 27 Jul 2004 22:31:40 +0100
Message-ID: <00de01c47427$41e6ae40$fd3f0751@oemcomputer>
To: <lojban@yahoogroups.com>
References: <20040727194035.93302.qmail@web41907.mail.yahoo.com> <00d101c47424$785fb780$fd3f0751@oemcomputer> <4106D1F4.9040005@thestonecutters.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 23:15:34 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441
X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 62.41.128.20
From: "And Rosta" <a.rosta@v21.me.uk>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Test sentences
X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=175222075
X-Yahoo-Profile: andjamin
X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 22766

xod:
> And Rosta wrote:
> 
> >xorxes:
> >
> >>36. Cicero is Tully
> >>
> >>    la kikeros cu du la tulis
> 
> Thank you for not translating it as la siseros.

A pedant, in the Nick Nicholas mould, say, would prefer kikeron
and tulius.
 
> >Given the ragbag and decontextualized nature of the test sentence
> >collection, the translation is reasonable, but as you are aware,
> >it completely sidesteps the issues that make (36) a challenging
> >test sentence in the first place. Change it to, say, "John
> >does not believe that Cicero is Tully", and the challenge becomes
> >more apparent. (The solution is to have brivla for "Cicero"
> >and "Tully" & then it all works out hunkydory.)
> 
> Why? Because we're using "me"?

"Cicero is Tully" is sensitive to intensional contexts (e.g.
as x2 of "believe"). Lojban can capture opaque & transparent
readings when brivla are involved, but not when cmene are
involved. Cmene are like {le} gadri, and are insensitive
to intensional contexts.

--And.