From jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar Sun Jul 25 14:12:10 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 49203 invoked from network); 25 Jul 2004 21:12:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 25 Jul 2004 21:12:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Jul 2004 21:12:10 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.32) id 1BoqHw-0001ot-GL for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 14:12:08 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BoqHL-0001oN-Ll; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 14:11:31 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 25 Jul 2004 14:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web41905.mail.yahoo.com ([66.218.93.156]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.32) id 1BoqH9-0001o2-Kv for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 14:11:19 -0700 Message-ID: <20040725211048.99549.qmail@web41905.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.43.74.216] by web41905.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 25 Jul 2004 14:10:48 PDT Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 14:10:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <200407251133.31770.phma@phma.hn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-archive-position: 8333 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar X-list: lojban-list To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.81.49.134 From: Jorge "Llambías" Reply-To: jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar Subject: [lojban] Re: Test sentences X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=142311107 X-Yahoo-Profile: jjllambias2000 X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 22756 --- Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Saturday 24 July 2004 19:57, Jorge "Llambías" wrote: > > 11. The lord of the elves will cross the sea only if the lord of Mordor is > > defeated. > > le nobli be lo elfe ba pagre le xamsi ijo le nobli be la mordor > > cu se jinga > > ijo sisi inaja. {jo} means "if and only if". Yes, but I find the English ambiguous here. (In many of the sentences there were ambiguities. I tried to translate what I considered the most likely meaning.) Would 11. really be true if the lord of Mordor is defeated and the lord of the elves won't cross the sea after all? I think "if and only if" is just not idiomatic in English. In any case, I think both {inaja} and {ijo} are lacking something: which way the causal link. The English does not suggest that the lord of Mordor can be defeated simply by the lord of the elves crossing the sea, does it? The English really seems to be saying that the lord of Mordor not being defeated´prevents the lord of the elves from crossing the sea. > > 14. The woman Argyle hoped to marry was the woman the man she hoped to > > marry hoped to marry. > > le ninmu poi la argail pacna lo nu speni cu du da poi le nanmu poi > > da pacna lo nu speni cu pacna lo nu speni > > I don't understand the English. Is Argyle a man or a woman? I assumed Argyle is male (that would be a pretty safe assumption from the context, I think, at least until gay marriage is more established). > Does "she" refer > to Argyle or to someone from a previous sentence? "She" is the only woman mentioned, since "the woman" refers both times to the same person. In another context, I suppose it could refer to someone mentioned in a previous sentence, but with the sentence as given I don't see how that could be. > Did Argyle become someone's spouse or officiate at the marriage? What's the more likely interpretation? Usually, any sentence can be given many different interpretations. When translating into another language it is almost impossible to keep all the same possible interpretations in the translation, so we have to pick the most likely one. I thought the English in this case was pretty clear. The Lojban is a bit tricky if you want to fill the {ke'a}s in explicitly, because of the embedded {poi}s. I started doing it, but then I realized I would need {ke'a xi pa}, {ke'a xi re}, and I didn't remember the convention. Is {ke'a xi pa} the innermost or the outermost? mu'o mi'e xorxes __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail