From eks2@york.ac.uk Sat Aug 28 12:18:37 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: eks2@york.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 46128 invoked from network); 28 Aug 2004 19:18:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Aug 2004 19:18:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com) (66.218.66.106) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Aug 2004 19:18:36 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.131] by n38.grp.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Aug 2004 19:18:36 -0000 Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 19:18:35 -0000 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 1173 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 66.218.66.106 From: "Evgeni Sklyanin" X-Originating-IP: 62.252.0.5 Subject: personal pro-sumti as masses X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=71790832 X-Yahoo-Profile: sklyanin X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 22978 coi rodo The question I want to ask has arisen recently in a discussion between Russian loglanists and lojbanists on a Russian linguistic forum http://lingvoforum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13949 The discussion started from an attempt to translate into lojban the frase "Together, we are stronger than apart" (in Loglan {Miu forli mio} --- Loglan has two series of personal pronouns for masses and individuals). The first attempt was {mi'a tsamau ro mi'a} which was criticized on the grounds that {mi'a}, as defined in CLL, is a mass. The following variants were suggested: {mi'a tsamau lu'a mi'a} =? we-and-they-jointly are stronger then some of us or {mi'a tsamau ro lu'a mi'a} =? we-and-they-jointly are stronger than each of us Questions: 1. Which of the variants do you prefer? 2. Can we use {me} instead of {lu'a}? 3. In CLL it is said that {mi'o}, {mi'a}, {ma'a}, and {do'o} are masses. How about other personal pro-sumti? Are they also masses? For example, {ro lu'a do}=? each of you? If so, is the popular greating {coi rodo} correct? May be, {coi ro lu'a do} is better? mu'o mi'e .evgenis.