From lojban-out@lojban.org Tue Oct 19 17:30:47 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 362 invoked from network); 20 Oct 2004 00:30:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 20 Oct 2004 00:30:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Oct 2004 00:30:45 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CK4NH-0000Bn-Jk for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:30:43 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CK4MG-0000Ad-80; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:29:40 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:29:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [69.55.227.156] (helo=transfinite.hypercomplex.net ident=root) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.34) id 1CK4Ls-00009z-Ec for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:29:17 -0700 Received: from fb1.oucs.ox.ac.uk (fb1.oucs.ox.ac.uk [163.1.2.175]) by transfinite.hypercomplex.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4.swsoft) with ESMTP id i9K0TDUK014883 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:29:14 -0700 Received: from tx0.mail.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.163]) by fb1.oucs.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1CK05N-00007T-UZ for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:55:57 +0100 Received: from scan0.mail.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.162] helo=localhost) by tx0.mail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CK05E-0006cN-27 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:55:48 +0100 Received: from rx0.mail.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.1.161]) by localhost (scan0.mail.ox.ac.uk [129.67.1.162]) (amavisd-new, port 25) with ESMTP id 24892-05 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:55:48 +0100 (BST) Received: from dh178.chch.ox.ac.uk ([129.67.120.178] helo=chch.ox.ac.uk) by rx0.mail.ox.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CK05E-0006cK-1C for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:55:48 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:55:45 +0100 Message-ID: <20041019195545.GA24478@thedave.chch.ox.ac.uk> References: <20041019130327.GB17868@thedave.chch.ox.ac.uk> <20041019174057.67232.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20041019174057.67232.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> X-PGP-Key: http://mbays.freeshell.org/pubkey.asc X-PGP-KeyId: B5FB2CD6 X-cunselcu'a-valsi: gasta User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i X-Greylist: Delayed for 04:33:14 by milter-greylist-1.4 (transfinite.hypercomplex.net [69.55.227.156]); Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:29:14 -0700 (PDT) X-archive-position: 8801 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jboste@zugzwang.port5.com X-list: lojban-list To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-From: Martin Bays From: Martin Bays Reply-To: jboste@zugzwang.port5.com Subject: [lojban] Re: jordis X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 23207 * Tuesday, 2004-10-19 at 10:40 -0700 - jordi mas : > > coi maten. > > ( Are long vowels not allowed in cmene? ) All vowels are long in Lojban, except {y}. But {martin} is pronounced something like "maa-r-teen" (with the 'r' pronounced in one of a number of ways, none of which I can do right... see http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter3.html) > > > So my rule of thumb from now on is "never use du even when you want to > > > assert identity, just in case". If I mean "hey, it's my wife you're > > > talking about!" but I have to say "hey, you are talking about my wife" > > > to avoid asserting identity, I'm fine with that, however imprecise it > > > is. > > Well that's a different case - the difference here is only one of > > emphasis. The two sentences are logically equivalent, and it is a matter > > of English idiom that the first emphasises the te tavla - so imho it would > > be malglico to copy the construction to Lojban. > > No, it's not a matter of _English_ idiom. OK, then it's malrarbau! (rarbau == natlang) > Most languages have some means to mark on the focus of a sentence -- the > "new information", in this case "my wife". English sometimes moves the focus > to the beginning of the sentence and turns the rest into a headless relative > clause, "(who) you're talking about". Spanish uses mainly intonation. > > How do I mark the focus in lojban? {ba'e} is the official way to emphasize constructs. So (ignoring the "hey"): {do tavla fi le ba'e mi speni} Would emphasise the fact that the wife in question pertains to me. Perhaps spelling out how she pertains would emphasise further, as would bringing her nearer the front of the sentence: {do fi le speni be ba'e mi ku tavla} mu'o mi'e maten.