From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri Oct 22 16:10:19 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 48330 invoked from network); 22 Oct 2004 23:10:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Oct 2004 23:10:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Oct 2004 23:10:19 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CL8Y5-0002xc-JM for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:10:17 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CL8XI-0002wO-Jh; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:09:28 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [69.55.227.156] (helo=transfinite.hypercomplex.net ident=root) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.34) id 1CL8Wk-0002vX-Ir for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:08:54 -0700 Received: from moth.int.cec.wustl.edu ([128.252.145.1]) by transfinite.hypercomplex.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.4.swsoft) with ESMTP id i9MN8qUK015493 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:08:53 -0700 Received: from moth.int.cec.wustl.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by moth.int.cec.wustl.edu (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i9MMEAfi005376; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:14:10 -0500 Received: from localhost (adam@localhost) by moth.int.cec.wustl.edu (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) with ESMTP id i9MMEASY005373; Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:14:10 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: moth.int.cec.wustl.edu: adam owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:14:10 -0500 (CDT) Cc: lojban@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Greylist: Delayed for 00:54:35 by milter-greylist-1.4 (transfinite.hypercomplex.net [69.55.227.156]); Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:08:53 -0700 (PDT) X-archive-position: 8845 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: adam@cec.wustl.edu X-list: lojban-list To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-From: adam@cec.wustl.edu From: lojban-out@lojban.org Reply-To: adam@cec.wustl.edu Subject: [lojban] Re: Help in examples ... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 23251 >>> Please can someone provide me with a few examples >>> where a sumti cannot be passed of as "just a complex >>> sort of noun"? >> >> There's no such thing ... If we >> called the sumti "noun phrases", the gismu "simple >> verbs" and so on, we could speak about lojban grammar >> in English just fine. > > I think that turns out not to be entirely the case. {blanu}, for > example, is not well described as a "verb" because it subsumes the > verb "to be". The selbri, and brivla in particular, have almost > swayed her because of the unification offered by predicates. Counter > examples to sumti=noun might get most of the way there. The biggest difference I see between selbri and verbs is the number of arguments. Some verbs have direct objects, some also have indirect objects, but although it's easy to picture a verb that means "to be blue" it's hard for me to picture a verb with five places (like klama). selbri represent a relationship among entities, not an action on the part of a single entity. Perhaps good example brivla that are hard to treat as verbs would be ones that are more inherently nouns: santa umbrella x1 is an umbrella/parasol shielding x2 from x3, made of material x4, supported by x5 For instance. As for sumti that aren't nouns, I'm not sure there are any, but there are some that don't feel very nounish in normal English. Consider "I want to go home". .i mi djica le nu mi klama le zdani "to go home" doesn't seem like a noun to me (though technically I guess "the event of my going home" would be), but {le nu mi klama le zdani} definitely is a sumti in that bridi. Really, the differences between nouns and sumti and between verbs and selbri aren't that great, if you look at it from a certain point of view. Perhaps the best reason to use the terminology is if it helps you overlook your existing ideas of what nouns and verbs are supposed to be/do. -- Adam Lopresto http://cec.wustl.edu/~adam/ Perilous to us all are the devices of an art deeper than we possess ourselves. --Gandalf