From lojban-out@lojban.org Wed Nov 03 13:25:54 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 46320 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2004 21:25:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2004 21:25:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2004 21:25:54 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CPSdc-0007QT-No for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 13:25:52 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPSct-0006oI-Lo; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 13:25:07 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 03 Nov 2004 13:25:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr ([139.179.30.24]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPSch-0006Dz-F3 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 13:24:56 -0800 Received: by manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr (Postfix, from userid 72) id 3182333AA0; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 23:24:17 +0200 (EET) Received: from [139.179.111.112] (ppp112.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr [139.179.111.112]) by manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B33426EB8 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 2004 23:24:15 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <418940D4.80404@bilkent.edu.tr> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 22:34:28 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040914 X-Accept-Language: en, en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20041103205031.62339.qmail@web41907.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20041103205031.62339.qmail@web41907.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 8937 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: robin@bilkent.edu.tr X-list: lojban-list To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-From: robin From: robin Reply-To: robin@bilkent.edu.tr Subject: [lojban] Re: na scope. Again. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 23343 Jorge Llambías wrote: > --- robin wrote: > >>Jorge Llambías wrote: >> >>>What it would change is simple negations like >>>{mi e do na klama le zarci}. Instead of meaning that >>>either I don't go, or you don't go, or both, it would >>>mean that neither I nor you go. >> >>I would find that rather weird (lojbanically - it makes sense if you >>want to make Lojban closer to English), > > > That's certainly not the goal. I don't mind Lojban differing from > English whenever it makes sense, but the global scope of {na} makes > no sense even from a strictly lojbanic point of view. It just > doesn't fit well with everything else with scope, and it creates > some problems that need more ad-hoc rules to solve them. > > >>and also think it would defeat >>the point of using "na" rather than "na'e". > > > {na'e} modifies a brivla, it is quite different from {na}, which > negates a bridi. I am in no way proposing to conflate them. > > >>If "na" doesn't mean "it is >>not the case that [brivla]", what does it mean that isn't covered by a >>different negative? > > > {na} means "it is not the case that [bridi]". That doesn't change. > Sorry, I meant "bridi". But it seems that if {mi e do na klama le zarci} means that neither I nor you go to the store, then what we are doing is modifying the brivla, i.e. we're saying "I and you do something other than go to the store" which is pretty much the same as saying {mi e do na'e klama le zarci}, isn't it? Forgive me if I'm being dense here; I've always found negation hard to get my head round. robin.tr -- "His youngest brother, Tendzin Choegyal, says one of the Dalai Lama's greatest finds of recent years was super-glue -- second, in fact, only to the more recent discovery of super-glue remover." Robin Turner IDMYO Bilkent Universitesi Ankara 06533 Turkey www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin