From jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar Wed Nov 03 12:52:13 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 7806 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2004 20:52:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 3 Nov 2004 20:52:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 2004 20:52:12 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CPS70-0008O5-SK for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:52:11 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPS6D-0008Mn-2r; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:51:21 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:51:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from web41907.mail.yahoo.com ([66.218.93.158]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CPS60-0008GE-LK for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:51:08 -0800 Message-ID: <20041103205031.62339.qmail@web41907.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.49.74.2] by web41907.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:50:31 PST Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:50:31 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <41892F95.2010804@bilkent.edu.tr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-archive-position: 8936 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar X-list: lojban-list To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.81.49.134 From: Jorge "Llambías" Reply-To: jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar Subject: [lojban] Re: na scope. Again. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=142311107 X-Yahoo-Profile: jjllambias2000 X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 23342 --- robin wrote: > Jorge Llambías wrote: > > What it would change is simple negations like > > {mi e do na klama le zarci}. Instead of meaning that > > either I don't go, or you don't go, or both, it would > > mean that neither I nor you go. > > I would find that rather weird (lojbanically - it makes sense if you > want to make Lojban closer to English), That's certainly not the goal. I don't mind Lojban differing from English whenever it makes sense, but the global scope of {na} makes no sense even from a strictly lojbanic point of view. It just doesn't fit well with everything else with scope, and it creates some problems that need more ad-hoc rules to solve them. > and also think it would defeat > the point of using "na" rather than "na'e". {na'e} modifies a brivla, it is quite different from {na}, which negates a bridi. I am in no way proposing to conflate them. > If "na" doesn't mean "it is > not the case that [brivla]", what does it mean that isn't covered by a > different negative? {na} means "it is not the case that [bridi]". That doesn't change. Quantifiers are also bridi modifiers. For example, {roda zo'u [bridi]} means: For every x, it is the case that [bridi]. What happens when you have both {roda} and {na} present? They can modify a bridi in two different orders: It is not the case that: For every x it is the case that: [bridi] or: For every x it is the case that: It is not the case that: [bridi] Normally, when we have two operators that act on a bridi, the first one takes the second one under its scope. This happens for example with {roda} and {naku} or {roda} and {su'ode} or {roda} and {ga... gi...}, etc. For some reason, {na} was excepted from this rule, so that it supposedly always trumps any other bridi operator when it appears right in front of the selbri. In simple cases, this is awkward, but it can be managed. In some more complex cases, for example with {na} inside a logically connected bridi, the whole things just breaks down. In addition, the rule for other bridi operators that can also appear in front of the selbri, such as {roroi}, was never very clear. Do they follow the {na} rule, or the usual one of order of appearance? mu'o mi'e xorxes __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com