From jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar Thu Dec 09 13:16:33 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 55954 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2004 21:16:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Dec 2004 21:16:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 2004 21:16:29 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CcVeF-0003QD-QS for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 09 Dec 2004 13:16:27 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CcVdc-0003PK-SV; Thu, 09 Dec 2004 13:15:48 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 09 Dec 2004 13:15:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from web41906.mail.yahoo.com ([66.218.93.157]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CcVdR-0003P3-Q3 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 09 Dec 2004 13:15:37 -0800 Received: (qmail 36553 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Dec 2004 21:15:06 -0000 Message-ID: <20041209211506.36551.qmail@web41906.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [200.49.74.2] by web41906.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 09 Dec 2004 13:15:06 PST Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 13:15:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20041209202431.GE10796@chain.digitalkingdom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-archive-position: 9081 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar X-list: lojban-list To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.81.49.134 From: Jorge "Llambías" Reply-To: jjllambias2000@yahoo.com.ar Subject: [lojban] Re: John Cowan's view on reification X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=142311107 X-Yahoo-Profile: jjllambias2000 X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 23482 --- Robin Lee Powell wrote: > This is actually BPFK business, so the rest of you can ignore it. > > On Thu, Dec 09, 2004 at 03:18:27PM -0500, John Cowan wrote: > > > > My view on Lojban's view of reification: > > > > Everything that a sumti refers to, not within the scope of a > > negation, is reified. That includes abstract le nu/lo nu things, > > le'e things, lo'e things, and the works. You may perhaps find an > > exception to this general principle, but I can probably explain it > > away. I adhere to this principle, assuming that by "sumti" we mean the "sumti-6" of the formal grammar. In addition to sumti-6 we can include non-logically connected sumti-6. We cannot however include quantified or logically connected sumti because those things do not themselves refer (quantifiers and logical connectives are bridi operators, even though they look as if they were just modifying a sumti), although the sumti-6 within them does. I adhere in fact to a more general principle: "Everything that a sumti-6 refers to, whether or not within the scope of a negation, is reified." I don't think negation affects reference. For example, in {no le ci cribe cu gleki} there is a reference to the three bears ({le ci cribe}) even though it is within the scope of a negation. > > Ya happy now, rlpowell? > > As long as that means you're comfortable with (in xorlo) the idea > that {re lo ci broda} is one broda and {re loi ci broda} is six > broda, and as long as xorxes feels his outstanding questions to you > have been answered, yep. {re lo ci broda ...} says that two of three brodas do something. {lo ci broda} refers to three brodas. {re lo ci broda} does not refer, it says how many of the three brodas satisfy some predicate. {re loi ci broda ...} says that two groups of three brodas do something. {loi ci broda} refers to a group or groups of three brodas. {loi ci broda} = {lo gunma be lo ci broda}. {re loi ci broda} = {re gunma be lo ci broda} does not refer, it says that there are two groups of three brodas that satisfy some predicate. mu'o mi'e xorxes __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail