From lojbab@lojban.org Thu Dec 23 04:55:29 2004 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 30228 invoked from network); 23 Dec 2004 12:55:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 23 Dec 2004 12:55:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lakermmtao10.cox.net) (68.230.240.29) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Dec 2004 12:55:28 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (really [24.250.99.39]) by lakermmtao10.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-117-20041022) with ESMTP id <20041223124849.LQNC1657.lakermmtao10.cox.net@[127.0.0.1]>; Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:48:49 -0500 Message-ID: <41CABD73.7010800@lojban.org> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:43:31 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan Cc: lojban@yahoogroups.com References: <20041222184225.GN20429@chain.digitalkingdom.org> <20041222190005.GE6612@skunk.reutershealth.com> In-Reply-To: <20041222190005.GE6612@skunk.reutershealth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 68.230.240.29 From: Bob LeChevalier Reply-To: lojbab@lojban.org Subject: Re: [lojban] Founders: ja'o and ni'ikri X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=1120595 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojbab X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 23513 John Cowan wrote: >Robin Lee Powell scripsit: > > > >>The definition for ja'o mentions "ni'ikri", which is not in >>NORALUJV. It seems inherently contradictory to me; what was it >>intended to mean? >> >> > >I think it dates back to the days before the krici/jinvi distinction was >clearly understood. In any event, the definition of "krici" as believing >without evidence/proof is probably too strong: it should be more like >believing with or without evidence/proof. > I think it dates back to before the era when people expected that lujvo would be strictly semantically compositional. Before jvojva, a word like ni'ikri could encompass krici and jinvi even if the latter two were mutually exclusive. krici is in fact not intended to be exclusive of jinvi. The point is that the belief is independent of any evidence. In that sense, believing "with or without evidence" is identical to believing "without evidence". If you invoke the relevance of evidence at all, you also need to add in "believe contrary to evidence" because that also happens in belief. lojbab