From sentto-44114-23757-1106771151-lojban-in=lojban.org@returns.groups.yahoo.com Wed Jan 26 12:26:30 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:26:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from n6a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com ([66.94.237.40]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cttk6-00051K-AK for lojban-in@lojban.org; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:26:22 -0800 Received: from [66.218.66.58] by n6.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Jan 2005 20:25:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.29] by mailer7.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Jan 2005 20:25:51 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: xah@xahlee.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 87938 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2005 20:25:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Jan 2005 20:25:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO xahlee.org) (206.130.99.40) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Jan 2005 20:25:50 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.5] (adsl-68-120-129-239.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net [68.120.129.239]) (authenticated) by xahlee.org (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id j0QKPoK05505; Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:25:50 -0700 In-Reply-To: <20050126194142.GT20235@chain.digitalkingdom.org> References: <20050126132740.61853.qmail@web41903.mail.yahoo.com> <20050126194142.GT20235@chain.digitalkingdom.org> Message-Id: <390791C4-6FD8-11D9-82AB-000A95C58224@xahlee.org> Cc: lojban@yahoogroups.com To: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 206.130.99.40 From: xah lee X-Yahoo-Profile: p0lyglut MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 12:24:04 -0800 Subject: [lojban] Re: minimal lojban Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-archive-position: 9348 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: xah@xahlee.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list Robin Lee Powell wrote: > If a minimal Lojban includes tanru, you *must* have one or the > other, or you lose expressive power. As it seems to me that the > goas here is to produce a Kernel Language for Lojban (that is, the > most minimal set of Lojban from which all the rest of Lojban can be > described as just shortcuts), you don't want to lose expressive > power. Robin described my mind... i find it irritating when reading tutorials which describes schemes of convenience or other reasons (e.g. sumti switching, and tanru order switching) and all the complex consequential combinatoric precedence and their meanings... many of these things, as far as i know, are there to make lojban more syntactically varied for the taste of human expressions, which i think is misdirected design goal (possibly only as a hindsight). (i don't think lojban is ever suitable for human communication as with natural languages. And, selling lojban for human communication rather does harm to the language, disrupting and complicating its logic basis.) I like and view lojan as a logical system that can be used to paraphrase the contents human communication. And, it is unique in that role. ... so in this vein, also i find many translation of names and places to lojban rather time wasting and confounds the language. (e.g. such as inventing a lojban version for name of cities, or many tech terms and other lingoes ... ) i think it is important for lojban to stay tightly with it's logic connections. I like a minimal lojban (or lojban kernel) because it simplifies learning with respect to my perspective of lojban, and also i don't have to deal with it in my lojban notes. Xah xah@xahlee.org http://xahlee.org/PageTwo_dir/more.html --------------- On Jan 26, 2005, at 11:41 AM, Robin Lee Powell wrote: On Wed, Jan 26, 2005 at 05:27:39AM -0800, Jorge Llamb?as wrote: >> but i know there are bo and (ke, ke'i)... surely lojban isn't >> complete without these?? > > ke and ke'e are very rarely used. I'm actually starting to use them quite often, oddly enough. > bo is more often used in the {i bo} or the {na'e bo} > constructions than in tanru. In the end it's a matter of taste > whether you think ke-ke'e, bo or co is more essential for lojban. > I wouldn't include bo and ke-ke'e in my minimal lojban, but that's > just my point of view. If a minimal Lojban includes tanru, you *must* have one or the other, or you lose expressive power. As it seems to me that the goas here is to produce a Kernel Language for Lojban (that is, the most minimal set of Lojban from which all the rest of Lojban can be described as just shortcuts), you don't want to lose expressive power. -Robin -- http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ Reason #237 To Learn Lojban: "Homonyms: Their Grate!" Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/ To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------ Yahoo! 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