From lojban-out@lojban.org Thu Jan 06 21:04:12 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 85327 invoked from network); 7 Jan 2005 05:04:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m23.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 7 Jan 2005 05:04:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jan 2005 05:04:11 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CmmI7-0005KA-CY for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:04:03 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CmmGw-0005JB-7h; Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:02:50 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:02:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from genamics.blastula.net ([205.214.85.184]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA:24) (Exim 4.34) id 1CmmGk-0005J2-RW for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:02:38 -0800 Received: from [203.184.7.165] (helo=gulik.co.nz) by genamics.blastula.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.43) id 1CmmGi-00069f-2b for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 18:02:37 +1300 Message-ID: <41DE1829.50504@gulik.co.nz> Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 18:03:37 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040216 Debian/1.6.x.1-10 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed X-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - genamics.blastula.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - lojban.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - gulik.co.nz X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-archive-position: 9195 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mikevdg@gulik.co.nz X-list: lojban-list To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-From: Michael van der Gulik From: Michael van der Gulik Reply-To: mikevdg@gulik.co.nz Subject: [lojban] Re: some thoughts about lojban use and future X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 23587 Hi all. xah lee wrote: >The task of having computers understanding natural languages at >parsing level is basically solved. For example, today there are lots of >online translation softwares from and to many natural languages and >they do manage. To go beyond translation to real understanding as to >generate a proper response, involves AI that is still pure science >fiction. > > I think that lojban could be a step in that direction, and not because the language is parsable. I personally am learning lojban to improve my logical insight. I believe the path to understanding how to create a true AI is by understanding how we think. Also, as a sidenote, a true AI wouldn't need to be programmed to understand a language but would slowly learn it like a child would. And as a first language for an AI to learn, I believe that lojban is far better suited than English. >I don't think lojban will befit as a language for human communication. >Suppose if we have a region to speak lojban from now on, and lojban >being the first language of all newborns. I believe in a few >generations lojban will quickly loss all its design premises of >regularity and mathematical properties. This i believe because humans >do not process information as a logical machine, even if all their >thoughts are in a logical language. > > Umm.. yes and no. If nobody formally learned to read and write, then their language would gain and/or lose regularity and change rapidly because the speakers use the language however they wish with no regard for the rules of that language. I believe that English as a language is evolving much slower than it once did because the speakers of English are now receiving proper schooling on the grammer and use of English. If lojban is taught (teached is a better word..) properly and its speakers were keen to use it correctly, then it should become more regular rather than less. >as to the worf(sp?) hypothesis that language effects thought, it is >obviously true. I think it is moronic to believe otherwise. > > That's a very logical statement! X is obviously true, and for all Y where Y is a person that thinks not-X, Y is a moron. The sapir-worf hypothesis in my mind holds true because in order to use the language constructs, the language speakers must learn the underlying (underpinning?) theories and techniques of that language. Learning affects thought, thus the language learners thought is also affected. >I think the way for lojban to prosper is for it to remain in the hands >of logic community, as it is today. Lojban is a great tool in studying >the relation of meaning, logic, and natural languages. It is an aid in >the field of philosophy of languages or analytic philosophy. I imagine >the utmost achievement for lojban is for example having mathematical >treaties in lojban, and for it to be heavily used in AI research, >machine to machine or human to machine. > > Hooray to that! Some ideas that I have had: - Describing mathematical concepts and equations would hypothetically be easier in Lojban than English. - Doing mathematical equations / Logical proofs and theories in Lojban rather than mathematic notation could be possible. - Lojban would make an excellent tool for gathering user requirements for software engineering. Hypothetically, one could describe a computer system in Lojban, and then perhaps have a computer automatically create that system. Like prolog, but even more descriptive. Mikevdg.