From lojbab@lojban.org Sun Feb 13 09:55:38 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 62464 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2005 17:55:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m10.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Feb 2005 17:55:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lakermmtao05.cox.net) (68.230.240.34) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Feb 2005 17:55:37 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (really [24.250.99.39]) by lakermmtao05.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-117-20041022) with ESMTP id <20050213175537.NVLU7302.lakermmtao05.cox.net@[127.0.0.1]> for ; Sun, 13 Feb 2005 12:55:37 -0500 Message-ID: <420F961A.40000@lojban.org> Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:02:02 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lojban List References: <200502130829.09923.phma@phma.hn.org> In-Reply-To: <200502130829.09923.phma@phma.hn.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 68.230.240.34 From: Bob LeChevalier Reply-To: lojbab@lojban.org Subject: Re: [lojban] Archivist: Counterexamples to general fu'ivla lujvo making X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=1120595 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojbab X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 23834 Pierre Abbat wrote: >The Book says: "Many attempts were made to add general mechanisms for making >lujvo that contained fu'ivla, but all failed on obvious or obscure >counterexamples; finally the general ``zei'' mechanism was devised instead." >Xorxes has come up with a morphology that purports to make lujvo from all >fu'ivla and even cmene. Can someone dig up the counterexamples? > > I doubt if there is any record of counterexamples unless they are in the Lojban List archives. Nora was the one who kept finding counterexamples, but I was posting for her in those days. I vaguely associate the proposed introduction of "zei" with a LogFest discussion between Nora, John Cowan and perhaps others; of course there were no meaningful permanent records kept of Logfest discussions. If it helps in searching archives, I believe that the predecessor to zei was a linking "hyphen", "iy". I can't remember exactly how it was glued onto the components. My archived notes on the morphology algorithm show that "iy" was added sometime between July and Sept 1991, probably at that year's LogFest. I think it survived a year or two before further work showed it was broken and ZEI was added. So to look for counterexamples, I would search list archives between July 1991 and perhaps Sept 1994 looking for keywords "morphology", "le'avla" and "fu'ivla", and text string "iy" which should not be too common in Lojban List except in such a discussion. Sorry if that isn't sufficient.