From lojban-out@lojban.org Tue Feb 01 15:28:19 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 71604 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2005 23:28:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 1 Feb 2005 23:28:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 1 Feb 2005 23:28:19 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Cw7RS-0001GZ-5y for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 15:28:18 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Cw7QU-0001Fy-Mq; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 15:27:18 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Tue, 01 Feb 2005 15:27:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.34) id 1Cw7QG-0001Fj-UA for lojban-list@lojban.org; Tue, 01 Feb 2005 15:27:04 -0800 Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:27:04 -0800 Message-ID: <20050201232704.GV16153@chain.digitalkingdom.org> Mail-Followup-To: lojban-list@lojban.org References: <20050201231227.GU16153@chain.digitalkingdom.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050201231227.GU16153@chain.digitalkingdom.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i X-archive-position: 9398 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-list To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-eGroups-Remote-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-From: Robin Lee Powell From: Robin Lee Powell Reply-To: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Subject: [lojban] Re: pacna is kind of broken. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 23777 On Tue, Feb 01, 2005 at 03:12:27PM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > The definition of pacna is amazingly polysemous. > [snip] > > Even in the main definition we're conflating "desire" (which is > djica) with expectation (the x3 place). Now that I've bitched about this, let me talk about possible solutions. We can't change pacna away from "hope"; there's too much usage based on that. In fact, AFAICT pacna is so'a roi treated as a 2-place predicate meaning "x1 hopes for x2". In particular, the Martin Luther King, Jr. speech translation uses "mi pacna da" a lot, apparently. As far as I can tell, only pacna, cunso and (arguably) lakne have places for the likelyhood of an event. So there's no where else to turn for "I expect it to rain tomorrow" without implying desire for the event. I suspect a lujvo could be made with krici and cunso, but it'd suck a lot. cu'o is no help IMO, because it's not explicitely subjective. Having one word for the probability senses of "I expect it to rain tomorrow" and "John Doe will win the election, with a probability of 95% +/- 1% 19 times out of 20" would be *bad*. Therefore, I reccomend the creation of a gismu for "expect", formed in the traditional gismu fashion, for approval by the BPFK. The place structure would be exacly that of pacna, with explicit notes that desire for the event is not in any way implied. -Robin -- http://www.digitalkingdom.org/~rlpowell/ *** http://www.lojban.org/ Reason #237 To Learn Lojban: "Homonyms: Their Grate!" Proud Supporter of the Singularity Institute - http://singinst.org/