Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 14:47:46 -0500
Message-Id: <200502231947.j1NJlkTd016702@mole.e-mol.com>
To: lojban@yahoogroups.com
In-Reply-To: <421CCDBA.7010204@eubot.com> 
References: <41E57613.7060606@users.sourceforge.net> <20050222210350.GA6994@mit.edu> <421BE620.8050100@eubot.com> <200502231703.j1NH3NTd022802@mole.e-mol.com>  <421CCDBA.7010204@eubot.com> 
Content-Type: text/plain
From: Matt Arnold <mattarn@123.net>
Reply-To: mattarn@123.net
Subject: Re: [lojban] Presentation, visual aid grammar diagrams
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Lines: 62

coi iuban
Yes, I was planning to mention it, and your recent e-mail inspired this message.
While learning Lojban I've always wanted the grammar visualizer you describe to help me learn, but didn't want to mention it because I thought it must be too complicated, not to mention I didn't want to seem to be complaining. The work that has already been done on learning tools is exceptional and really more than I had a right to expect, such as the online Lojban-to-English translator. But its error messages are unhelpful. It would be great if it were able to formulate alternative sentences very close to what was typed, even if they're gibberish as long as they're correctly-formed.
A couple of years ago I was dissatisfied with the way the examples in a Lojban web textbook had been typeset in the limits of monotype ascii, so I copied and pasted into Adobe InDesign and started professionally formatting it. (That is my profession.) I used table-in-text feature for the examples. Each lojban valsi on the top level vertically aligned with the gloss below, similar to the online text, but the words were within cells. I nested tables within tables, and cells within cells, when it would illustrate selbri, sumti, tanru, clauses, etc. with different backgrounds and borders color-coded in greyscale for their function. With long sentences it was a challenge to fit horizontally on the page, but nevertheless was quite attractive, readable, and elaborate. I realized that the representational system needed to be designed by someone who thoroughly understood the grammar because the system started to fail to fit after a few chapters.
I should hunt up that document and show you the PDF.
la epkat

jorne@eubot.com wrote:
>Be sure to mention my Lojban-related open-source project (jorne.org) in
>your presentation. :-) I'll eventually need more developers to help with it.
>
>I think it would be really cool to have a Lojban text editor that was
>grammar-aware and created a semantic network graphic as text is entered
>into the editor. Or even lets people write Lojban by dragging and
>dropping words or concepts into the net. This would be a good learning
>tool too. (It could also work the other way, creating a graphic
>representation of any imported Lojban text, or from a URL.) I am
>tentatively calling this editor the Lojban Semantic Visualizer (lojvis?
>Lojbo Viska? Anyone have better ideas for a catchy project name in lojban?).
>
>I was thinking about adding this as a sub-project to the Jorne project,
>because it's the same basic idea (of mapping semantic networks to
>Lojban). Would anyone here be interested in using an editor like that?
>If so, I'll start working on the framework once my free time returns.
>I've actually got bits and pieces of it already, from the RDF work I've
>been doing (and Robin's parser helps a lot too).
>
>Matt: I did a similar graphic in a post not too long ago, treating a
>Lojban sentence as a semantic network.
>Example sentence was: le prenu cu tavla le skami
>
>Subject line was
>Re: [lojban] Re: minimal lojban
>
>If you find it helpful, feel free to use any derivative of the earlier
>graphic. If you don't have access to it, let me know by private e-mail
>and I'll send it to you.
>
>Best Regards,
>la iuban
>
>(Cross-posting to lojban-java)
>
>Matt Arnold wrote:
>
>>For a presentation that I'm giving on Lojban, I'd like to ask this group two questions.
>>
>>#1, Since I'll be presenting to a group of open-source computer programmers, they might be tempted to join the Lojban community if I show them a list of interesting applications that they could make. What are the skills most needed, and the programs most needed? What opportunities are currently available for group development of Lojban-related software?
>>
>>#2, For the visual presentation, I'd like to make graphics inspired by the illustration in CLL chapter 12 depicting a type of tinkertoy construction set. I intend to lean heavily on functional elegance from an engineering standpoint-- the concept of Lojban as a sophisticated toolkit. I wonder if I could extend this visual metaphor of modular parts to explain the basics of gismu, cmavo and place structures in a lojban sentence. Have any of you made drawings of this nature?
>>
>>When I was first beginning in Lojban, I recalled the grammar diagrams we used to do in English class to identify parts of speech. I thought about actually cutting pieces out of wood to represent gismu. When a block with a gismu written on it was employed as a selbri, the segments depicting the meanings x1, x2 etc. would telescope out to became sumti bays. In these bays you could slot other blocks. Cmavo pegs could work as "adapters" with specialized ends that restricted their attachment to proper grammatical use. Reading further, I came to realize that's insanely complicated for a variety of reasons. It was impractical to physically implement, but I still think there might be a potential to make grammar diagrams as flash animations this way. At least it might work for the simplest beginner sentences.
>>
>>-la epkat

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