From lojban-out@lojban.org Sat Mar 19 06:20:11 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 81078 invoked from network); 19 Mar 2005 14:20:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Mar 2005 14:20:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Mar 2005 14:20:10 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.44) id 1DCeoC-0005BA-GL for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:20:08 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.44) id 1DCenS-00059d-TH; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:19:25 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:19:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.44) id 1DCenB-00059F-DV for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:19:05 -0800 Received: from web81307.mail.yahoo.com ([206.190.37.82]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.44) id 1DCen6-000557-Ur for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:19:05 -0800 Message-ID: <20050319141829.74126.qmail@web81307.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [65.69.48.37] by web81307.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:18:29 PST Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2005 06:18:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) X-archive-position: 9619 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-eGroups-From: John E Clifford From: John E Clifford Reply-To: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Subject: [lojban] Re: lojban ills: implicit emphasis X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 23980 By dawn's surly light (and after finding some CL notes) this whole thing seems confused, beginning with a conflation of C and B. So skip it; C is exactly {se}: Cabc is acb, {se tavla fa do mi} is {tavla fa mi do} and so on. {te,ve,xe} are a bit more complicated (are not primitives anyhow), but I can't find a work out for them off hand. --- John E Clifford wrote: > Well, I translated Schoenfinkel for my German > comp, so I don't work as well with Curry et al. > > But, as I think about it, none of this really > quite works in any case: (C a b c) gives (a(c > b)), that is the two "arguments" after a are in > fact one argument, the application of c to b, > not > two separate arguments as the application of a > to > both c and b or to c and b together. So > nothing > much works right here, but at least with > normalized syntax (which is perfectly legal in > Lojban: {tavla fa mi do} (the {fa} is not > strictly required but is much clearer than > without)) {se} function like C in the ordering, > but not in the grouping: {tavla fa mi do} is > either {(tavla fa mi) do} or {tavla } > (where the <> is another function -- whose > standard version I forget -- for creating an > ordered pair out of a 2-sequence of functors). > Neither of these is something that is easily > given in CL (I think) but in there somewhere > since computable. I wish I could remember more > of > what happeened in that old paper (or who wrote > it, for that matter) since I remember it as > being > pretty straightforward on various kinds of > tanru > and only slightly nonstandard (left > associating? > -- I can't remember the function for that > either). > > - Ben Goertzel wrote: > > > > **** > > Hoops! C converts into , not > , > > so {se} is fairly complex too. C is Lojban's > > (never used) {setese}. > > > > **** > > > > Yes, you're right; I was thinking of the > > normalized predicate-logic rather than > > syntactic-string representation of Lojban > > semantics ;) [although I failed to say so -- > > oops] > > > > E.g., > > > > mi tavla do > > > > is equivalent to the predicate logic formula > > > > (tavla) (mi) (do) > > > > (using combinatory-logic curried notation) > > which is equivalent to > > > > (C tavla) (do) (mi) > > > > using the C combinator. > > > > Using combinators on the syntactic-string > > representation of Lojban is a bit screwy > > because of the arbitrariness of the placement > > of the predicate in the argument list > according > > to Lojban syntax. > > > > -- Ben > > > > > > > > > >