From lojban-out@lojban.org Sun Mar 13 06:36:53 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 39770 invoked from network); 13 Mar 2005 14:36:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Mar 2005 14:36:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Mar 2005 14:36:53 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.44) id 1DAUD4-0006XH-BF for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 06:36:50 -0800 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.44) id 1DAUCQ-0006Vv-NX; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 06:36:11 -0800 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sun, 13 Mar 2005 06:36:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.44) id 1DAUBl-0006VS-Dq for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 06:35:29 -0800 Received: from web81307.mail.yahoo.com ([206.190.37.82]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.44) id 1DAUBj-0006Ux-R1 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 06:35:28 -0800 Message-ID: <20050313143456.56863.qmail@web81307.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [65.69.48.37] by web81307.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 13 Mar 2005 06:34:56 PST Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2005 06:34:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <423346E5.3050107@eubot.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-archive-position: 9570 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net X-list: lojban-list To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-eGroups-From: John E Clifford From: John E Clifford Reply-To: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Subject: [lojban] Re: Semantic Primes X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 23933 Sorry; I saw "semantic web" and went off on the historic thing (n-dimensional concept network) rather than checking to see what it meant here and now (I should have known better, tech terms being what they are: if I squint real hard I can sorta see how "ontology" might come to be "representation of terms and their interrelationships," but I haven't gotten around "lemma" yet). In any case, I see some real advantages to Lojban from your project. Since Lojban gismu are meant to be monosemous, you will pin them down to a single item in the Wordnet set and thus explicitly get rid of the rivals: {djuno} for example is ^know^3, especially not 1 or 2. It is, alas, not quite 3 even, since 3 allows "know" to be used when we only have supreme confiidence that something is the case even when it turns out not to be, {berti} in short. Thus, Lojban may have some useful reflections back onto Wordnet, by proposing other divisions of the same space (I can see someone arguing that {djuno}, while it excludes 1 and 2 of ^know^ might include some other cases (perhaps 9, for example)while still being offically monosemous within Lojban. Go for it! --- Brian Eubanks wrote: > > coi rodo > > I think what Brandon is trying to do, and me > too, with the Jorne Project > (http://jorne.org -- which I hope he will > join), is to be able to > convert Semantic Web constructs to and from > Lojban. I agree that the > Lojban gismu are not exactly semantic primes. > > Some ontologies for semantic primes can be > found in: > English Wordnet at > http://wordnet.princeton.edu/ > SUMO/MILO at http://suo.ieee.org/ > OpenCyc at http://opencyc.org/ > and others > > But because gismu can be combined logically > (and the language is > syntactically non-ambiguous) it is an > appropriate prose language for > creating and describing semantic content. We > would need to build > standard semantic hierarchies in order to do > that. > For example they can be Lojban<->Lojban, > Lojban<->Wordnet or Lojban<->SUMO. > > I think it would be very powerful to have the > gismu formally related to > concepts from each of the above (in a > hierarchy/ontology such as OWL). > This forms a natural dictionary (think > "semantic gloss") that is > accessible to machine reasoning and can also > form the basis for > automated discovery of Lojban glosses in other > languages. I started > looking at some of the gismu and trying to map > them to SUMO concepts but > have not had much time to spend on it lately. > English has a Wordnet > database, why shouldn't Lojban? ;-) And we can > do it even better because > of the logical aspects of Lojban. > > Imagine the following scenario: > ------- > Last year, in 2015, the Semantic Web arrived in > a big way. Half of the > world's web sites have converted their pages > into webs of concepts > instead of text documents linked by "keywords" > (which are what HTML > hyperlinks are). Software conversion agents are > becoming autonomous, and > can now automatically discover and reason about > knowledge gathered from > sites on the web. This can happen because the > semantics of the content > is encoded in RDF tags. But a lot of the > ancient 2005-era legacy data in > natural language format still needs to be > properly converted. It's a > massive undertaking. Lojban is playing an > important part in this. > > By 2012, all the major natural languages had a > wordnet and grammarnet. > But Lojban had the most machine-compatible of > any of these, because it > didn't rely on a neural network or fuzzy logic > to process the grammar. > So the World Semantic Council voted to make > Lojban as the official > intermediate prose description language for > semantic webs. > > Once any natural language document is converted > into a semantic (RDF) > description, software agents need to check the > correctness of the > mapping. These quality testing agents convert > the RDF structures into > Lojban. Lojban here is working like a hybrid of > natural language and > data structure. The agents compare the Lojban > against the original text > and its English, Chinese, and Hindi > translations from RDF. Currently, a > human also checks the generated text for > semantic correctness (according > to the StandardHuman2011 semantic standard). > This is taking too much > time and money. There are rumors that the human > QA checks will be > reduced by 50% next year. > > Note: This document is a translation to English > from Quechua and German > versions (via RDF and Lojban) and its semantic > consistency has not yet > been verified. > ------- > > This stuff will become real, and it's already > happening in some ways. > Witness the amazing growth of RSS site feeds > lately. And XML is used > everywhere. Take a look at the W3C's vision for > the semantic web and its > clear that Lojban would fit into the picture > very well. > http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/ > > la iuban > blog at http://brian.mxdj.com > > John E Clifford wrote: > > >This sounds like an interesting project and I > am > >glad you think that Lojban may help. But you > >should note early on that Lojban gismu are not > >meant to be semantic primes but rather higher > >nodes in a web that will be more useful for > >forming compounds (primes make for very long > >compounds -- check out AUI). Notice, by way of > >making the point, the current discussion about > >{pilka} and {skapi}, which probably share some > >primes and yet are clearly different and are > both > >gismu. Taking gismu as fixed points, your web > >will have to go down as well as up to fit > other > >concepts in, if that is the overall scheme you > >are following (I don't keep up, so my ideas > are > >very 1970's -- roughly old stone age, I > suspect). > > > >- > > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! 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