From ben@goertzel.org Mon Mar 28 11:28:35 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ben@goertzel.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 99803 invoked from network); 28 Mar 2005 19:28:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m11.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 Mar 2005 19:28:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO intelligenesiscorp.com) (208.234.8.229) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 Mar 2005 19:28:34 -0000 Received: from zombiethustra (pcp06586041pcs.nrockv01.md.comcast.net [69.140.24.121]) by intelligenesiscorp.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id j2SJS2Kj021360; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:28:04 -0500 To: , Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 14:28:09 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_05F0_01C533A2.5D945D50" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-reply-to: <200503281802.j2SI2STd012040@mole.e-mol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Originating-IP: 208.234.8.229 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Ben Goertzel" Subject: RE: [lojban] Lossless Lojban <--> English Converter? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=1278257 X-Yahoo-Profile: bgoertzel X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24048 ------=_NextPart_000_05F0_01C533A2.5D945D50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Yeah, I think a Lojbanic Ramona would be a great thing to have, and wouldn't be very hard to create as an extra service running on top of a LojLink system.. While I agree of course that it's a wrongheaded approach to AI, I also think that the knowledge entered into such a DB could be useful for educating a genuine Lojban-speaking AI (though creating a genuine Lojban-speaking AI is obviously an entirely different process). -- Ben -----Original Message----- From: Matt Arnold [mailto:mattarn@123.net] Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 1:02 PM To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [lojban] Lossless Lojban <--> English Converter? Would a LojLink database be a useful component of Lojban teaching software? For instance, perhaps entering knowledge (just general stuff about the world around us) and having LojLink reason about it might generate lots of new Lojban sentences for a student to try to translate, without bothering the uber-Lojbanists about it. I've often pondered that the most important thing for the growth of Lojban would be personal tutoring. This is of course geographically impractical, and even on the internet one never knows when a knowledgeable person will be available to speak to. No human Lojbanist can be expected to have the 24-hour availability to total strangers possessed by a computer program, nor its patience with the constant mistakes of proto-Lojbanists. But that's what is needed: a Lojban equivalent of Kurzweil's "Ramona." Even if it's stupid, as long as it knows the rules of the language it would cause the sheer quantity of conversation actually taking place in Lojban to take off like a shot. Once LojLink is done, I recommend creating a common sense knowledge base in LojLink, just to have an interactive conversational context for Lojban other than IRC. I am aware that this approach to AI is considered wrongheaded, and I don't dispute that one way or the other, but I am not proposing that this is for OpenCyc's purposes. It's just an excuse for the knowledge enterers to practice a lot of Lojban without actually needing other Lojban speakers to be socially available at the moment. -Matt ben@goertzel.org wrote: >Nick -- >No, and this would be a quite difficult project. For some of my recent >thoughts on this and related issues see >http://www.goertzel.org/new_research/lojban_AI.pdf >To make a long story short, >-- translating Lojban into weird, awkward, sometimes ungrammatical but >basically comprehensible English is definitely a solvable problem, though >requiring a moderate rather than trivial amount of work >-- translating Lojban into fully grammatical and elegant English would be >quite hard >-- translating English into Lojban would be extremely difficult given the >current (somewhat pitiful) state of computational linguistics and AI >technology. The right approach would be to create an interactive tool for >doing this, and then have the tool learn from its mistakes so as to >adaptively get better and better at translation. I have written down some >related thoughts at http://www.goertzel.org/new_research/LojLink.pdf >If any of y'all are seriously interested in working on this sort of thing I >am definitely will to lend my (considerable, if I do say so ;-) knowledge of >and experience with computational linguistics. Unfortunately, however, I >don't have time to do much hands-on work on such things these days. >-- > Ben Goertzel >www.goertzel.org > -----Original Message----- > From: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org >[mailto:lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org]On Behalf Of Nick LaForge > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 2:11 PM > To: lojban@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [lojban] Lossless Lojban <--> English Converter? > Hi, > Does there exist a computer program that can convert lojban text to > english text, and then back into the original lojban text without > changes? (And visa-versa). > I think this would be very useful for a project I envision, where data > is stored in lojban and converted into English only when an english > user needs to read it. When the user inputs text, it would be > converted into lojban and stored, but when the user wants to read the > text, it needs to be converted back into english without change. > Thank you. :) > -- > Nick LaForge > Mystic0 _______________________________________________________ Sent through e-mol. E-mail, Anywhere, Anytime. http://www.e-mol.com To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: lojban-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! 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Hi,
 
Yeah,=20 I think a Lojbanic Ramona would be a great thing to have, and wouldn't be v= ery=20 hard to create as an extra service running on top of a LojLink=20 system.. 
 
While=20 I agree of course that it's a wrongheaded approach to AI, I also think that= the=20 knowledge entered into such a DB could be useful for educating a genuine=20 Lojban-speaking AI (though creating a genuine Lojban-speaking AI is obvious= ly an=20 entirely different process).
 
--=20 Ben
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Arnold=20 [mailto:mattarn@123.net]
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2005 1:02=20 PM
To: lojban@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [lojban]=20 Lossless Lojban <--> English Converter?

Wou= ld a=20 LojLink database be a useful component of Lojban teaching software? For=20 instance, perhaps entering knowledge (just general stuff about the world= =20 around us) and having LojLink reason about it might generate lots of new= =20 Lojban sentences for a student to try to translate, without bothering the= =20 uber-Lojbanists about it.

I've often pondered that the most import= ant=20 thing for the growth of Lojban would be personal tutoring. This is of cou= rse=20 geographically impractical, and even on the internet one never knows when= a=20 knowledgeable person will be available to speak to. No human Lojbanist ca= n be=20 expected to have the 24-hour availability to total strangers possessed by= a=20 computer program, nor its patience with the constant mistakes of=20 proto-Lojbanists. But that's what is needed: a Lojban equivalent of Kurzw= eil's=20 "Ramona." Even if it's stupid, as long as it knows the rules of the langu= age=20 it would cause the sheer quantity of conversation actually taking place i= n=20 Lojban to take off like a shot.

Once LojLink is done, I recommend= =20 creating a common sense knowledge base in LojLink, just to have an intera= ctive=20 conversational context for Lojban other than IRC. I am aware that this=20 approach to AI is considered wrongheaded, and I don't dispute that one wa= y or=20 the other, but  I am not proposing that this is for OpenCyc's purpos= es.=20 It's just an excuse for the knowledge enterers to practice a lot of Lojba= n=20 without actually needing other Lojban speakers to be socially available a= t the=20 moment.

-Matt

ben@goertzel.org wrote:
>Nick --
>= ;No,=20 and this would be a quite difficult project.  For some of my=20 recent
>thoughts on this and related issues see
>http://www.go= ertzel.org/new_research/lojban_AI.pdf
>To=20 make a long story short,
>-- translating Lojban into weird, awkward= ,=20 sometimes ungrammatical but
>basically comprehensible English is=20 definitely a solvable problem, though
>requiring a moderate rather = than=20 trivial amount of work
>-- translating Lojban into fully grammatica= l and=20 elegant English would be
>quite hard
>-- translating English = into=20 Lojban would be extremely difficult given the
>current (somewhat=20 pitiful) state of computational linguistics and AI
>technology.&nbs= p;=20 The right approach would be to create an interactive tool for
>doin= g=20 this, and then have the tool learn from its mistakes so as=20 to
>adaptively get better and better at translation.  I have=20 written down some
>related thoughts at http://www.goer= tzel.org/new_research/LojLink.pdf
>If=20 any of y'all are seriously interested in working on this sort of thing=20 I
>am definitely will to lend my (considerable, if I do say so ;-)= =20 knowledge of
>and experience with computational linguistics. = =20 Unfortunately, however, I
>don't have time to do much hands-on work= on=20 such things these days.
>--
> Ben=20 Goertzel
>www.goertzel.org
>  -----Original=20 Message-----
>  From:=20 lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org
>[mailto:lojban-list-bounce@lojban.or= g]On=20 Behalf Of Nick LaForge
>  Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 2:11= =20 PM
>  To: lojban@yahoogroups.com
>  Subject: [lojba= n]=20 Lossless Lojban <--> English Converter?
>  Hi,
>&n= bsp;=20 Does there exist a computer program that can convert lojban text=20 to
>  english text, and then back into the original lojban tex= t=20 without
>  changes? (And visa-versa).
>  I think th= is=20 would be very useful for a project I envision, where data
>  i= s=20 stored in lojban and converted into English only when an english
>&= nbsp;=20 user needs to read it.  When the user inputs text, it would=20 be
>  converted into lojban and stored, but when the user want= s to=20 read the
>  text, it needs to be converted back into english=20 without change.
>  Thank you. :)
>  --
> = ;=20 Nick LaForge
> =20 Mystic0

_______________________________________________________Sent=20 through e-mol. E-mail, Anywhere, Anytime. http://www.e-mol.com





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