From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Apr 07 21:57:01 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 07 Apr 2005 21:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.44) id 1DJlY5-0007sO-NL for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 07 Apr 2005 21:56:53 -0700 Received: from n15a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com ([66.94.237.32]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.44) id 1DJlY3-0007rn-Gl for lojban-in@lojban.org; Thu, 07 Apr 2005 21:56:53 -0700 DomainKey-Signature: Received: from [66.218.69.4] by n15.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Apr 2005 04:56:16 -0000 Received: from [66.218.67.199] by mailer4.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 08 Apr 2005 04:56:15 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-email X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 15169 invoked from network); 8 Apr 2005 04:56:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Apr 2005 04:56:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lakermmtao02.cox.net) (68.230.240.37) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Apr 2005 04:56:14 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (really [24.250.99.39]) by lakermmtao02.cox.net (InterMail vM.6.01.04.00 201-2131-118-20041027) with ESMTP id <20050408045548.IRBA6521.lakermmtao02.cox.net@[127.0.0.1]> for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 00:55:48 -0400 Message-ID: <42560E85.7060104@lojban.org> User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.8 (Windows/20040913) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Lojban List References: <20050407223024.78187.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050407223024.78187.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 68.230.240.37 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Robert LeChevalier X-Yahoo-Profile: lojbab MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list lojban@yahoogroups.com; contact lojban-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list lojban@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 00:54:29 -0400 Subject: [lojban] Re: bicycle noralujv quest Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 9786 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lojbab@lojban.org Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list John E Clifford wrote: >>Cool, thanks. >>I reminds me a conversation I have had with >>xorxes a while ago about >>the translation of "bicycle". >>There's no gismu for "bicycle" (although there >>is one for car, truck, >>train, etc), and the lujvo proposed in noralujv >>is complicated. So it >>looks like lojban is culturally biased towards >>motor vehicles against >>human self energy propelled vehicles... No it isn't. You've missed carce, which need not be a motor vehicle, "truck" is NOT a distinct gismu but is part of karce which I think is the only word for a strictly motor-propelled vehicle, and you've erroneously presumed that a trene is a motor vehicle, when it has a place for propulsion method. > Basically, there isn't one, the gismu list having > been held more sacrosanct than most things in > Lojban. However, if you really feel the need and > think you can convince others (I doubt this), > then find the word for "bicycle" in the base > languages and set about creating a gismu-form > mush from them .. I'm hoping that if any new gismu get added, that they will NOT be devised as part of the proposal, but created separately once it is agreed that one is needed - this was the practice in the past (though we then voted again on the actual word being added, at Logfest). The procedure for making them should be checked by multiple people, the scoring algorithm needs to be consistent (and I'm sure most people don't know the details on what counts and what doesn't), and the word chosen has to consider possible rafsi rules as well as scoring. > If you find (as I think you > will), that the word in most languages is the > local variant on "bicycle," then you could make > up a fuhivla- form version of that word -- which > would be quicker than trying to get a fully > official gismu. Yes. But I already see some sloppiness in thinking. Is the vehicle in question specifically a traditional bicycle - with two wheels and a single seat. Are we trying to include tricycles, bicycles built for two or more, bicycles with a sidecar for a child passenger, all variations that might or might not be included depending on the concept used and the languages borrowed from. If the point is that it is just a self-propelled wheeled vehicle (which would include scooters and even roller skates), then sezycarce is appropriate (self fills both the x2 and x3 of carce). If you want something else, you need to come up with the definition of precisely what the concept does and does not include - and the more specific and English like the definition, the more likely the word will be verbose. Of course the real answer is that there should NOT be "a word for bicycle". There should be multiple words which overlappingly cover the semantic space covered by the English word "bicycle". The recognition of a noralujv word having a valid meaning of "bicycle" doesn't preclude there being two or three other valid words that also mean "bicycle" but which convey different aspects of the concept, and overlap other semantic arenas differently from the noralujv word. A certain wise now-retired logic professor once said "Let a thousand flowers bloom" when addressing this specific topic %^) lojbab ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> In low income neighborhoods, 84% do not own computers. At Network for Good, help bridge the Digital Divide! http://us.click.yahoo.com/EA3HyD/3MnJAA/79vVAA/GSaulB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: lojban-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! 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