From ryanpatgray@yahoo.com Thu Apr 21 18:47:52 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ryanpatgray@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 5106 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2005 01:47:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2005 01:47:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.35) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2005 01:47:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Apr 2005 01:47:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.90] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Apr 2005 01:47:51 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 01:47:51 -0000 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Length: 986 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-Originating-IP: 66.94.237.35 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 68.57.0.97 From: "Ryan Gray," Subject: Something Wittgenstein wrote ... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=158603219 X-Yahoo-Profile: ryanpatgray X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24215 In Culture and Value Wittgenstein made an interesting point. He wrote: "Philosophers who say: 'after death a timeless state will begin', or: 'at death a timeless state begins', and do not notice that they have used the words 'after' and 'at' and 'begins' in a temporal sense, and that temporality is embedded in their grammar." or if having the origingal German helps: "Die Philosophen, welche sagen: >>nach dem Tod wird ein zeitloser Zustand eintreten<<, oder: >>mit dem Tod tritt ein zeitloser Zustand ein<<, und nicht merken, dass sie im zeitlichen Sinne >>nach<< und >>mit<< und tritt ein<< gesagt haben, und, dass die Zeitlichkeit in ihrer Grammatik liegt." Whether or not you agree or disagree with Wittgenstein or the people he is mentioning, how would one say: "after death a timeless state will begin", or: "at death a timeless state begins" in Lojban and would you be able to do so without making the mistake Wittgenstein is talking about? Thanks, Ryan