From lojban-out@lojban.org Wed Apr 06 06:37:24 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 84852 invoked from network); 6 Apr 2005 13:37:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Apr 2005 13:37:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Apr 2005 13:37:23 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.44) id 1DJAie-0004OV-Gn for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 06:37:20 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.44) id 1DJAhw-0004O0-1m; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 06:36:39 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 06 Apr 2005 06:36:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.44) id 1DJAhH-0004Ng-9W for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 06:35:55 -0700 Received: from web81307.mail.yahoo.com ([206.190.37.82]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.44) id 1DJAh7-0004Mx-RX for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 06:35:54 -0700 Message-ID: <20050406133514.4821.qmail@web81307.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [65.69.48.37] by web81307.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 06:35:14 PDT Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 06:35:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 9770 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-eGroups-From: John E Clifford From: John E Clifford Reply-To: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Subject: [lojban] Re: {X1 selbri X2} = {X2 se selbri X1}? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24126 --- opi_lauma wrote: > > > Hello! > > I have new question. Is it true that {X1 selbri > X2} = {X2 se selbri > X1}? For example is {la tam. tavla la meris.} > equivalent to {la meris. > se tavla la tam.} ? Well, it depends. In this case it is true -- except for some pragmatic differences: putting Mary first may change the slant a bit. But in other cases it is not; in general it holds only if the sumti involved have fixed meanings in context or more exactly, if the meanings do not change by changing positions. So, for example, {ro da tavla de} is NOT the same as {de se tavla ro da} because the scopes of the quantifiers change, making different referents (the first says that everybody talks to somebody or other, the second that there is some one person to whom everybody talks.) If we fix the scopes of the quantifiers by prenexing, the problem disappears: {ro da de zo'u da tavla de} is the same as {ro da de zo'u de se tavla da}. To confuse matters further, not every quantifier works this way (da tavla de} is the same as {de se tavla da} ofr, although the scopes change, the meanings remain the same. > The reason of my doubt is following. I found > that {la tam. tavla la > meris.} should be translated as "Tom talks to > Mary", and {la meris. se > tavla la tam.} should be translated as "Mary > listens to Tom." But it > seams to me that these two English translations > have different > meaning. Really, if Tom talk to Mary it does > not necessarily mean that > Mary listen to Tom. Does it mens that > corresponding initial lojban > sentences also have different meaning, or may > be English translations > just not fully represent initial meaning of > lojban sentences? > > > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > --------------------~--> > Has someone you know been affected by illness > or disease? > Network for Good is THE place to support health > awareness efforts! > http://us.click.yahoo.com/RzSHvD/UOnJAA/79vVAA/GSaulB/TM > --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > > To unsubscribe, send mail to > lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > lojban-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > >