From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri Apr 22 13:18:19 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 90282 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2005 20:18:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2005 20:18:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2005 20:18:19 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DP4bP-0006R9-FB for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:18:15 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1DP4b6-0006Na-Iz; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:18:07 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:17:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DP4aX-0006MT-Op for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:17:21 -0700 Received: from root by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DP4aX-0006M4-9K for lojban-in@lojban.org; Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:17:21 -0700 Resent-From: root@chain.digitalkingdom.org Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:17:21 -0700 Resent-Message-ID: <20050422201721.GI24327@chain.digitalkingdom.org> Resent-To: lojban-in@lojban.org X-Sender: ryanpatgray@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 5106 invoked from network); 22 Apr 2005 01:47:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 22 Apr 2005 01:47:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO n1a.bulk.scd.yahoo.com) (66.94.237.35) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Apr 2005 01:47:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.69.2] by n1.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Apr 2005 01:47:51 -0000 Received: from [66.218.66.90] by mailer2.bulk.scd.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 22 Apr 2005 01:47:51 -0000 Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 01:47:51 -0000 Message-ID: User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 Resent-Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:17:21 -0700 Resent-Sender: nobody X-archive-position: 9855 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: root@chain.digitalkingdom.org X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-Yahoo-Post-IP: 68.57.0.97 X-eGroups-From: "Ryan Gray," From: "Ryan Gray," Reply-To: root@chain.digitalkingdom.org Subject: [lojban] Something Wittgenstein wrote ... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24224 In Culture and Value Wittgenstein made an interesting point. He wrote: "Philosophers who say: 'after death a timeless state will begin', or: 'at death a timeless state begins', and do not notice that they have used the words 'after' and 'at' and 'begins' in a temporal sense, and that temporality is embedded in their grammar." or if having the origingal German helps: "Die Philosophen, welche sagen: >>nach dem Tod wird ein zeitloser Zustand eintreten<<, oder: >>mit dem Tod tritt ein zeitloser Zustand ein<<, und nicht merken, dass sie im zeitlichen Sinne >>nach<< und >>mit<< und tritt ein<< gesagt haben, und, dass die Zeitlichkeit in ihrer Grammatik liegt." Whether or not you agree or disagree with Wittgenstein or the people he is mentioning, how would one say: "after death a timeless state will begin", or: "at death a timeless state begins" in Lojban and would you be able to do so without making the mistake Wittgenstein is talking about? Thanks, Ryan