From lojban-out@lojban.org Wed Apr 06 04:47:12 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 20260 invoked from network); 6 Apr 2005 11:47:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Apr 2005 11:47:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Apr 2005 11:47:12 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.44) id 1DJ901-0001fy-F0 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 04:47:09 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.44) id 1DJ8zm-0001ef-Ox; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 04:46:56 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 06 Apr 2005 04:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.44) id 1DJ8za-0001eV-3v for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 04:46:42 -0700 Received: from smtp3.epfl.ch ([128.178.2.15]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.44) id 1DJ8zX-0001ds-Sr for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 04:46:41 -0700 Received: (qmail 21956 invoked by uid 107); 6 Apr 2005 11:46:07 -0000 Received: from mailav1.epfl.ch (128.178.50.190) by smtp3.epfl.ch with SMTP; 6 Apr 2005 11:46:07 -0000 Received: from (128.178.50.133) by MAILAV1.EPFL.CH via smtp id 045e_eff31aa4_a690_11d9_8d37_001143d18479; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:42:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from imap1.epfl.ch (128.178.50.4) by smtp2.epfl.ch (AngelmatoPhylax SMTP proxy); Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:46:07 +0200 Received: from [128.178.83.108] by imap1.epfl.ch (mshttpd); Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:46:05 +0200 Message-ID: <1b35191b203b.1b203b1b3519@imap.epfl.ch> Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:46:05 +0200 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 1.21 (built Sep 8 2003) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Language: en X-Accept-Language: en Priority: normal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 9768 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: gregory.dyke@epfl.ch X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-eGroups-From: GREGORY DYKE From: GREGORY DYKE Reply-To: gregory.dyke@epfl.ch Subject: [lojban] Re: {X1 selbri X2} = {X2 se selbri X1}? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24124 > > > Hello! > > I have new question. Is it true that {X1 selbri X2} = {X2 se selbri > X1}? For example is {la tam. tavla la meris.} equivalent to {la meris. > se tavla la tam.} ? Equivalent. Possibly, pragmatically, there is a difference. "It is tom who talks to mary" vs "It is Mary who listens to tom". > > The reason of my doubt is following. I found that {la tam. tavla la > meris.} should be translated as "Tom talks to Mary", and {la > meris. se > tavla la tam.} should be translated as "Mary listens to Tom." But it > seams to me that these two English translations have different > meaning. Really, if Tom talk to Mary it does not necessarily mean that > Mary listen to Tom. Does it mens that corresponding initial lojban > sentences also have different meaning, or may be English translations > just not fully represent initial meaning of lojban sentences? tavla describes a relationship between a talker, an audience, a subject and a language. So the English sentences do not really represent the meaning. It is debatable whether Mary actually has to be "listening" in the sense of both "hearing" and "understanding/trying to understand" for this relationship to exist. Greg