From ben@goertzel.org Fri Apr 08 14:58:08 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ben@goertzel.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 86350 invoked from network); 8 Apr 2005 21:58:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 8 Apr 2005 21:58:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO intelligenesiscorp.com) (208.234.8.229) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 8 Apr 2005 21:58:07 -0000 Received: from zombiethustra (pcp06586041pcs.nrockv01.md.comcast.net [69.140.24.121]) by intelligenesiscorp.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id j38LvrQK005747 for ; Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:57:53 -0400 To: Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:58:09 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0212_01C53C64.85E63560" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Originating-IP: 208.234.8.229 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: "Ben Goertzel" Subject: RE: [lojban] Denoting counterfactual sentences in Lojban? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=1278257 X-Yahoo-Profile: bgoertzel X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24150 ------=_NextPart_000_0212_01C53C64.85E63560 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Oops, in my previous email I said --- .i lenu la suzyn. klama cu lerci ("The event of Susan coming is late") .i la jan jimpe go'i ("Zhang knows the previous.") .i la suzyn. sruma lenu go'i ("Susan assumes the previous.") --- but the middle sentence shoulda been .i la jan djuno go'i "djuno" for "know" rather than "jimpe" for "understand" ... (though I guess either one will really do given the context) Sorry for my usual sloppiness ;-) -- Ben G or else replacing the last of the three sentences with .i ra srumo lenu go'i (using "ra" to refer to "Susan", pretty obviously in context) However, I don't yet know how to mark the second utterance in this chain as hypothetical, so that the listener knows I don't really believe Zhang knows the previous, I'm just saying that Susan assumes so. IN other words, I want to say .i la jan HYP jimpe go'i ("Zhang knows the previous.") where HYP should be substituted by some appropriate cmavo that I haven't noticed in the "Lojban for Beginners" book yet.... Is there a cmavo like this? What is it? If not, what's the equivalent mechanism? For a simpler example of the same issue, consider "Ben does not believe Lojban is English" which should be (?) .i la lojban HYP mintu la glibau .i la ben na sruma go'i [the first sentence here leads to another confusion which is that lojban is a cmene, but I don't know a cmene for English -- glibau is a lujvo not a cmene... I don't like .i la lojban HYP mintu le glibau because this is a posited equivalence between two entities of different types, it seems semantically incorrect even though it may (?) be syntactically allowable. Comments, answers, etc.? -- Ben Goertzel To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lojban/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: lojban-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. ------=_NextPart_000_0212_01C53C64.85E63560 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi=20 all,

Oops, in my previous email I=20 said

---

.i lenu la suzyn. kl= ama cu=20 lerci ("The event of Susan coming is late")

.i=20 la jan jimpe go'i ("Zhang knows the previous.") =

.i la suzyn. sruma lenu go'i (= "Susan=20 assumes the previous.") =

---

but the middle = sentence=20 shoulda been

.i la jan djuno= =20 go'i

"djuno" for "kn= ow"=20 rather than "jimpe" for "understand"=20 ...

(though I guess= either=20 one will really do given the=20 context)

Sorry for my us= ual=20 sloppiness ;-)

-- Ben=20 G

or=20 else replacing the last of the three sentences with

.i=20 ra srumo lenu go'i (using "ra" to refer to "Susan", pretty obviously in=20 context)

However, I don't yet know how to mark the seco= nd=20 utterance in this chain as hypothetical, so that the listener knows I don= 't=20 really believe Zhang knows the previous, I'm just saying that Susan assum= es=20 so. IN other words, I want to say

.i la jan HYP= jimpe=20 go'i ("Zhang knows the previous.")

where HYP sho= uld be=20 substituted by some appropriate cmavo that I haven't noticed in the "Lojb= an=20 for Beginners" book yet....

Is there a cm= avo like=20 this? What is it? If not, what's the equivalent=20 mechanism?

For a simpler= example=20 of the same issue, consider

"Ben does not= believe=20 Lojban is English"

which should = be=20 (?)

.i la lojban = HYP mintu=20 la glibau

.i la ben na = sruma=20 go'i

[the first se= ntence=20 here leads to another confusion which is that lojban is a cmene, but I do= n't=20 know a cmene for English -- glibau is a lujvo not a=20 cmene...

I don't=20 like

.i la lojban = HYP mintu=20 le glibau

because this = is a=20 posited equivalence between two entities of different types, it seems=20 semantically incorrect even though it may (?) be syntactically=20 allowable.

Comments, ans= wers,=20 etc.?

-- Ben=20 Goertzel

To=20 unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com

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