From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon Apr 11 06:07:29 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 2213 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2005 13:07:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2005 13:07:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2005 13:07:29 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.44) id 1DKydS-0000zR-9g for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 06:07:27 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.44) id 1DKyd4-0000xr-NR; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 06:07:05 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 11 Apr 2005 06:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.44) id 1DKycU-0000uo-5f for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 06:06:26 -0700 Received: from dhcp20-25.cec.wustl.edu ([128.252.20.65] helo=scorpion.int.cec.wustl.edu) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (Exim 4.44) id 1DKycI-0000tq-60 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 06:06:24 -0700 Received: from scorpion.int.cec.wustl.edu (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by scorpion.int.cec.wustl.edu (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j3BD3NW1002431; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 08:03:55 -0500 Received: from localhost (adam@localhost) by scorpion.int.cec.wustl.edu (8.12.11/8.12.11/Submit) with ESMTP id j3BD2JjG002424; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 08:02:51 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: scorpion.int.cec.wustl.edu: adam owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 08:02:19 -0500 (CDT) Cc: lojban@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20050411104133.80621.qmail@web31303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: References: <20050411104133.80621.qmail@web31303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 9809 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: adam@pubcrawler.org X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-eGroups-From: "Adam D. Lopresto" From: "Adam D. Lopresto" Reply-To: adam@pubcrawler.org Subject: [lojban] Re: {X1 selbri X2} = {X2 se selbri X1}? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24166 On Mon, 11 Apr 2005, Opi Lauma wrote: > As I understood from previous postings, {X1 talks to > X2} and {X2 is talked by X1} mean the same. {X1 tavla > X2} and {X2 se tavla X1} have also the same meaning. Yes. > My question is whether {X1 melbi tavla X2} and {X2 > melbi se tavla X1} have also the same meaning. Ahhh, interesting question. Since tanru have a huge range of meanings, I'd say it's likely that they can mean any of the same set of things. But I'd also guess that they probably wouldn't get the same default meanings. > It seams to me that according to Reference Grammar > (http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter2.html) > the last two sentences have different meaning. Really, the > first one is translated as {Tom beautifully-talks to > Mary.} and the second one is translated as {Mary is a > beautiful-audience for Tom.}. In the last sentence > "beautiful" is related with action of Mary, it means that > Mary is talked by Tom and she does it beautifully. > However, as I understood from previous postings, "to be > talked" means "to do nothing" (even stone can be talked), > so I cannot understand how one can do nothing beautifully? No, I don't think the beauty is necessarily an action of either one. That is, either {la .tam. melbi tavla la .meris.} or {la .meris. melbi se tavla la .tam} could really be meaning {la .tam. tavla la .meris. lo ka melbi}, for instance (Tom talks to Mary about beauty), as well as many other things. So they probably can mean the same things, though you might be quicker to guess one or the other with a different construct. Also, you can get the latter arrangement of sumti with the former tanru, by using {X2 se ke melbi tavla [ke'e] X1}. The {ke...ke'e} brackets are used for grouping inside a tanru, so then the {se} modifies the entire tanru place structure. In general, I think {melbi tavla} isn't a great tanru to ponder too deeply. The essence of tanru is that they can mean any number of things, as is convenient, so it's nice to chose ones that convey your meaning succinctly. I think the purpose of putting {melbi tavla} in the examples was sort of like a koan, to get people to think about "what are the ranges of meanings this could have?", but with most tanru it's fairly obvious what was meant. And if not, you can always ask for clarification ({di'u tanru fo mo} or {ki'a} would work fine). -- Adam Lopresto http://cec.wustl.edu/~adam/ Eschew obfuscation!