From lojban-out@lojban.org Wed Apr 27 12:50:00 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 60785 invoked from network); 27 Apr 2005 19:49:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m18.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Apr 2005 19:49:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 2005 19:49:59 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DQsXR-0004Ws-Cs for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 12:49:37 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1DQsWw-0004WD-DI; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 12:49:08 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 27 Apr 2005 12:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DQsWk-0004Vt-4K for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 12:48:54 -0700 Received: from manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr ([139.179.30.24]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1DQsWh-0004VX-Rt for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 12:48:54 -0700 Received: by manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr (Postfix, from userid 72) id B4E5527070; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:48:18 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [139.179.111.107] (ppp107.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr [139.179.111.107]) by manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F9CF26F49 for ; Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:48:16 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <426FEE61.4040804@bilkent.edu.tr> Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:56:17 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20050425135451.62244.qmail@web81307.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050425135451.62244.qmail@web81307.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 9879 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: robin@bilkent.edu.tr X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-eGroups-From: robin From: robin Reply-To: robin@bilkent.edu.tr Subject: [lojban] Re: Something Wittgenstein wrote ... X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24248 John E Clifford wrote: > --- robin wrote: [snip] >> >>If I remember rightly, the main point >>Wittgenstein was making that death >>isn't a timeless state; it is not a state (or >>even an event) at all. We >>only have a concept of death because of the way >>language works, not >>because there is any state we can point to and >>call "death". > > > > A tad opaque, as I said. But that is what I was > saying in my opaque way, more or less. In > Lojban, that someone is dead, lo nu ko'a morsi, > counts as an event and lasts as long at least as > this {ko'a} has a referent available for > conversation (the domain of conversation being at > least somewhat cumulative temporally). Further, > that event is a state since it does not change in > any relevant way throughout its duration. But it > is a state of the world, not a state of ko'a, who > participates in no states. I suspect that the > difference here is marked in Lojban by the > difference between {nu} and {li'i}: no da li'i > ko'a morsi kei ko'a. And, of course, by the > difference between a particpant and an observer > (glossed over for {li'i}). > Nicely put. robin.tr