From lojban-out@lojban.org Wed Apr 06 05:49:37 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 18658 invoked from network); 6 Apr 2005 12:49:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m17.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Apr 2005 12:49:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Apr 2005 12:49:36 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.44) id 1DJ9yR-0003Kx-92 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 05:49:35 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.44) id 1DJ9xg-0003KK-57; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 05:48:51 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 06 Apr 2005 05:48:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.44) id 1DJ9xJ-0003KA-7U for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 05:48:25 -0700 Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.199]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.44) id 1DJ9xC-0003Jd-Jk for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 05:48:24 -0700 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 68so213019wri for ; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 05:47:41 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=MmBhINEXJJWALG0PYAJOpAcWD5d3VcoVYSmIneKx+G8Rrw65nXUd7k5/lRh9XMyW/EgqoTn1Ii6Gzy6tAWifr4/BjhClTkwwxVjXWklhg6BsN9gcIO1Jy8JHS0iioqPDvAAIFRsqSzmmo9WJTZSV+g3eEf0k/tVvwT0zk1nPoD0= Received: by 10.54.35.63 with SMTP id i63mr140680wri; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 05:47:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.69.3 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Apr 2005 05:47:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d1756050406054737d8b4a4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 09:47:41 -0300 In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 9769 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-eGroups-From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= Reply-To: jjllambias@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: {X1 selbri X2} = {X2 se selbri X1}? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24125 On Apr 6, 2005 8:31 AM, opi_lauma wrote: > I have new question. Is it true that {X1 selbri X2} = {X2 se selbri > X1}? As long as X1 and X2 don't include any operators with scope (such as quantifiers, logical connectives, negation) then yes. If there is scope involved, their order matters. >For example is {la tam. tavla la meris.} equivalent to {la meris. > se tavla la tam.} ? Yes. > The reason of my doubt is following. I found that {la tam. tavla la > meris.} should be translated as "Tom talks to Mary", and {la meris. se > tavla la tam.} should be translated as "Mary listens to Tom." Maybe "could" rather than "should". "Listen" could also be {tirna} or {jundi}. But it > seams to me that these two English translations have different > meaning. Really, if Tom talk to Mary it does not necessarily mean that > Mary listen to Tom. Does it mens that corresponding initial lojban > sentences also have different meaning, or may be English translations > just not fully represent initial meaning of lojban sentences? The latter. Translations are always a compromise. Probably "is talked to by" would in general be a more exact translation than "listens" for {se tavla}. mu'o mi'e xorxes