From opi_lauma@yahoo.com Mon Apr 11 03:41:34 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: opi_lauma@yahoo.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 42410 invoked from network); 11 Apr 2005 10:41:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 11 Apr 2005 10:41:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO web31303.mail.mud.yahoo.com) (68.142.198.98) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Apr 2005 10:41:33 -0000 Received: (qmail 80623 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Apr 2005 10:41:33 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=PSCWDNX/N+1yZr+n+WeoO5bmOn0RZ4FXnYcQTilY7MmLVLVFZNDYxHt7dlTGkW2Ho1m3hOL0DVuCAYi2HFJ+huSCxDAA9nGyWjHmApouxvA7toFljdqW5we83MTbov5wOiOoVK7TYrOahgzd0vgDO4sKi4FbA870UgEjNtR0zZ0= ; Message-ID: <20050411104133.80621.qmail@web31303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Received: from [141.2.216.130] by web31303.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 11 Apr 2005 03:41:32 PDT Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 03:41:32 -0700 (PDT) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Originating-IP: 68.142.198.98 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: Opi Lauma Subject: Re: {X1 selbri X2} = {X2 se selbri X1}? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=216990827 X-Yahoo-Profile: opi_lauma X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24163 As I understood from previous postings, {X1 talks to X2} and {X2 is talked by X1} mean the same. {X1 tavla X2} and {X2 se tavla X1} have also the same meaning. My question is whether {X1 melbi tavla X2} and {X2 melbi se tavla X1} have also the same meaning. It seams to me that according to Reference Grammar (http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter2.html) the last two sentences have different meaning. Really, the first one is translated as {Tom beautifully-talks to Mary.} and the second one is translated as {Mary is a beautiful-audience for Tom.}. In the last sentence "beautiful" is related with action of Mary, it means that Mary is talked by Tom and she does it beautifully. However, as I understood from previous postings, "to be talked" means "to do nothing" (even stone can be talked), so I cannot understand how one can do nothing beautifully? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/