From ignat99@gmail.com Fri Apr 01 16:36:11 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: ignat99@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 81626 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2005 00:36:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2005 00:36:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO wproxy.gmail.com) (64.233.184.195) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Apr 2005 00:36:11 -0000 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 68so1071725wra for ; Fri, 01 Apr 2005 16:36:10 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:references; b=hUqPpQCdi9eCIubBscrAAqC3b4mm6Nr2Dz9IZqV5PzE5TTxTC6JW67On6CN9+NaDdo7CpDYyMthxeK3bTduAqZ/8svxGSXc/dHQ+aPuiMLWnNqey9gdL7QuG044V61QAQwjm+5YE/JvE0RvoS7AVtvVyNioUbw3bB4cj/j60zbM= Received: by 10.54.42.50 with SMTP id p50mr215245wrp; Fri, 01 Apr 2005 16:36:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.54.6.71 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:36:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 09:36:10 +0900 To: John E Clifford , lojban@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: <20050401164631.67621.qmail@web81304.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable References: <20050401164631.67621.qmail@web81304.mail.yahoo.com> X-Originating-IP: 64.233.184.195 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 From: ignat 99 Reply-To: ignat 99 Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: fu'ivla X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=219030699 X-Yahoo-Profile: ignat999 X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24099 coi djan. The Russian Federation characters. IMHO,It is necessary in the document http://www.lojban.org/en/publications/reference_grammar/chapter17.html#s17 to add http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yo_%28Cyrillic%29 after line e .iestys. bu .ebu Because this is usual letter, not the archaic letter. ki'e .ignat. On Apr 2, 2005 1:46 AM, John E Clifford wrote: >=20 > --- ignat 99 wrote: > > coi djo'n. >=20 > I go by {djan} (or occasionally {djon}, but with > the lower, Loglan, /o/, not the higher Lojban /o/ > -- Loglan /ou/). /djo'n/ thus misses in several > ways, but especially in that y'y can only occur > between vowels and syllabic consonants do not > count. Also, of course, the /h/ in the english > spelling of my name is silent. >=20 > > .i coi rodo > > > > > It needs to be able to represent all > > > the sounds of that language, but it would be > > > wasteful for it to have separate symbols for > > > sounds that never occur in that language > > > directly, > > > > http://vzh.by.ru/DOC/NIK/01_1.jpg > > You see many words without the gaps(space) this > > because the Russian > > language is used many letters too. >=20 > I was jsut comparing this text with the Coptic > text of the Gospel of Mary and see the same > feature, what we would call run-on. apparently > it was pretty universal at one time, at least for > people who used scripts derived from Greek > (Hebrew has, I think, special forms to mark the > ends of at least some words; here we just have to > know them). > I don't get your last point about Russian using > many letters. >=20 > > IMHO, Grammar of lojban is also weak in > > comparison with the Russian. > > But grammar of lojban very developed in > > comparison with many other > > artificial languages. Thanks. This is the very > > good work. >=20 > I'm not sure what you mean by a developed > grammar. If you only mean complexity, then I > concede the point but not note that Lojban's > simplicity is one of the things that recommends > it: it is easier to learn and it can be parsed by > computers -- neither claim being one one would > make for Russian. If you mean something more, > then I think you would have a hard time defending > it: Lojban grammar is adequate for everything > anyone has so far been inclined to say in Lojban; > if there is something that can be said in > Russiona but not in Lojban, it has not yet been > pointed out. >=20 >=20 > > > > > > > In short, while the point I take you to be > > making > > > is an interesting one -- raising perhaps a > > > different notion of an international language > > -- > > > it does not seem to be a practical goal and > > so > > > failing to meet it is not to be counted > > against > > > Lojban or any other language. > > > > Thus, this Lojban is more American > > language(international language, > > the 200 years of the history) than others > > _local_ language (Slavic, > > Chinese, Devanagari (Hindi), more the 2000 > > years of the history), yes > > it is ??? > > :-))))) > > > Well, I am not sure that Lojban is particularly > American -- as other people have pointed out: the > alphabet, while of the same form as is used for > American, is used in a radically different way > and of course the grammar and the vocabulary are > international based, not specifically american. > It is American only in the sense that it was > created in America and most of its earliest users > were American, but this latter fact has long > since been rectified. As for history, Lojban has > a history of about 20 years, based on Loglan, > which goes back 50, and then on mathematical > forms of formal logic, which go back 150, and the > idea of an artifical international language goes > back to the mid 1600's, I think. Other > languages, both natural and constructed, have > much longer histories of course, but thye were > built -- in the constructed cases -- usually on > different principles or for different purposes or > -- i9n the case of natural languages -- sprang > from different cultures, so comparisons are not > entirely informative here. >=20 > > Ok, it is necessary to add the passed letter > > "=A3"(.eobu) into the > > Lojban Russian alphabet. > > > http://www.lojban.org/en/publications/reference_grammar/chapter17.html#s1= 7 > > We it actually use every day. This is actually > > important for 150 000 000 mans. > > It would be a good thing to correct the error. >=20 > Well, I can't work out what letter it is that is > missing since it turns up in different forms on > each copy of this letter, but, insofar as it is > used, it should have a Lojban name. And thre > same goes for letters in the other Cyrillic > alphabets, maybe even including the archaic > letters, like fita. >=20 >