From lojban-out@lojban.org Wed Apr 06 09:25:15 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 34353 invoked from network); 6 Apr 2005 16:25:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m28.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 6 Apr 2005 16:25:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Apr 2005 16:25:14 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.44) id 1DJDL7-0007bs-Px for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 09:25:13 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.44) id 1DJDKM-0007ay-Sq; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 09:24:27 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Wed, 06 Apr 2005 09:24:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.44) id 1DJDKB-0007ai-Fa for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 09:24:15 -0700 Received: from web81310.mail.yahoo.com ([206.190.37.85]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.44) id 1DJDK9-0007aH-8V for lojban-list@lojban.org; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 09:24:15 -0700 Message-ID: <20050406162342.57462.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [65.69.48.37] by web81310.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 06 Apr 2005 09:23:42 PDT Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 09:23:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 9773 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-eGroups-From: John E Clifford From: John E Clifford Reply-To: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Subject: [lojban] Re: {X1 selbri X2} = {X2 se selbri X1}? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790 X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24129 --- Opi Lauma wrote: > > I am not native English speaker. Can you pleas > explain > me what does it mean "to be talked to by". Is > it > passive from "to talk" (not only grammatically > but > also by meaning). I mean is {X1 talks to X2} > equivalent to {X2 is talked to by X1} by > meaning. Always excepting differences in rhetoric, they mean the same. As for the rhetoric, "is talked to" has the potential colloquial meaning of "is criticized or reprimanded" which is no part of {tavla} and is also less likely with the non-passive form (we tend to say "gives a talking to" for the reprimand sense). > Does > {X1 talks to X2} mean that {X2 is "hearing" and > "understanding/trying to understand" X1}? Does > {X2 is > talked to by X1} means the same, i.e. {X2 is > "hearing" > and "understanding/trying to understand" X1}. No; "talk to" in English does not require that the recipient understand or heed what is said. I can talk to my cat or a stone. Now, if I talk *with* someone about something, the suggestions is much stronger that that someone hears, understands, and even replies in kind. {tavla} seems to be somewhere in between -- it does appear to have to at least suggest that the hearer understands (and, indeed, hears) but does not suggest that they respond. All this is rather loosely impied, however, and I think I can tavla my dog or a stone without feeling too uncomfortable saying so. The important thing about {tavla} seems to be that it has a topic ("about") but no actual message, as opposed to {cusku} which has a message but only indirectly a topic.