From lojban-out@lojban.org Sat May 28 04:47:33 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 35730 invoked from network); 28 May 2005 11:47:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m29.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 May 2005 11:47:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 May 2005 11:47:33 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1Dbzlc-0005K3-Av for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 May 2005 04:46:12 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Dbzku-0005JL-Sx; Sat, 28 May 2005 04:45:34 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 28 May 2005 04:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DbzkL-0005In-2m for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 04:44:53 -0700 Received: from manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr ([139.179.30.24]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1DbzkD-0005If-Ol for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 04:44:52 -0700 Received: by manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr (Postfix, from userid 72) id 4C9B42F0E5; Sat, 28 May 2005 14:46:02 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [139.179.111.103] (ppp103.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr [139.179.111.103]) by manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BEE72700D for ; Sat, 28 May 2005 14:46:01 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <42983DD3.20909@bilkent.edu.tr> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 12:45:55 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050322) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20050527211129.76583.qmail@web81306.mail.yahoo.com> <925d175605052714346b0d8e60@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <925d175605052714346b0d8e60@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-archive-position: 10071 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: robin@bilkent.edu.tr X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-eGroups-From: robin From: robin Reply-To: robin@bilkent.edu.tr Subject: [lojban] Re: Again {lo}. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=KmlA0VHmmT2BMTBAYUob4wFWIg2uJlKjlbqzDxm7qepsEfMoKA X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24442 Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 5/27/05, John E Clifford wrote: > >>Does this mean what I and Robin TR said is not >>true of {lo gerku}? > > > But you two said different things. > > Robin.tr said: "{lo gerku cu pendo lo remna} means that > there is at least one dog, such that it is a friend to at least > one human, which is not what we want here." > > pc said: "Surely, if no dog is a friend of any man, then > {le gerku cu xagai pendo lo remna} is false, so it does > indeed entail Robin Turk's claimed reading." > > But the problem with Robin.tr's statement was not > what {lo gerku cu pendo lo remna} _entails_ but rather > what it _means_ in full. The question was whether or not it is > what we want here to translate "the dog is man's best friend". > > Robin.tr is quite correct that {su'o lo gerku cu xagrai pendo > su'o lo remna} is a bad translation of "the dog is man's > best friend", even if the latter entails the former. > > Robin.tr was assuming that {lo gerku cu xagrai pendo > lo remna} = {su'o lo gerku cu xagrai pendo su'o lo remna}. > (Not just entails but completely equivalent.) > > Robin.ca correctly pointed out that with the BPFK understanding > of {lo}, {lo gerku cu xagrai pendo lo remna} is not the same > thing as {su'o lo gerku cu xagrai pendo su'o lo remna}, and that > the former, (but not the latter) is a good translation of > "the dog is man's best friend". > It's a possible translation, but I still think {lo'e} is a better one. Using {lo} is even more ambiguous with the BPFK sense. Besides, {lo'e} and {le'e} are such cute articles, it's a shame not to use them! I think {lo'e} is particularly useful for this kind of adage. robin.tr