From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri May 27 14:35:00 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 32394 invoked from network); 27 May 2005 21:35:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 May 2005 21:35:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 May 2005 21:35:00 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DbmSe-0003ao-HE for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 27 May 2005 14:33:44 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1DbmSK-0003aR-D8; Fri, 27 May 2005 14:33:26 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 27 May 2005 14:33:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DbmS8-0003aH-DJ for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 14:33:12 -0700 Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.198]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1DbmS6-0003aA-5c for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 14:33:12 -0700 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 68so921164wri for ; Fri, 27 May 2005 14:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.40.57 with SMTP id n57mr1812506wrn; Fri, 27 May 2005 14:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.67.20 with HTTP; Fri, 27 May 2005 14:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d175605052714346b0d8e60@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 18:34:22 -0300 In-Reply-To: <20050527211129.76583.qmail@web81306.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050527211129.76583.qmail@web81306.mail.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 10066 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-eGroups-From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= Reply-To: jjllambias@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: Again {lo}. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=LY-5qvSuQJcLRb_Wi_IJG2Q8LvcJxzAqCsx2X99rHAe0x_hsnQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24437 On 5/27/05, John E Clifford wrote: > Does this mean what I and Robin TR said is not > true of {lo gerku}? But you two said different things. Robin.tr said: "{lo gerku cu pendo lo remna} means that there is at least one dog, such that it is a friend to at least one human, which is not what we want here." pc said: "Surely, if no dog is a friend of any man, then {le gerku cu xagai pendo lo remna} is false, so it does indeed entail Robin Turk's claimed reading." But the problem with Robin.tr's statement was not what {lo gerku cu pendo lo remna} _entails_ but rather what it _means_ in full. The question was whether or not it is what we want here to translate "the dog is man's best friend". Robin.tr is quite correct that {su'o lo gerku cu xagrai pendo su'o lo remna} is a bad translation of "the dog is man's best friend", even if the latter entails the former. Robin.tr was assuming that {lo gerku cu xagrai pendo lo remna} = {su'o lo gerku cu xagrai pendo su'o lo remna}. (Not just entails but completely equivalent.) Robin.ca correctly pointed out that with the BPFK understanding of {lo}, {lo gerku cu xagrai pendo lo remna} is not the same thing as {su'o lo gerku cu xagrai pendo su'o lo remna}, and that the former, (but not the latter) is a good translation of "the dog is man's best friend". mu'o mi'e xorxes