From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri May 27 02:29:22 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 53260 invoked from network); 27 May 2005 09:29:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 May 2005 09:29:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 May 2005 09:29:20 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1Dbb8U-0001Yz-6B for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 27 May 2005 02:28:10 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Dbb7q-0001YF-A9; Fri, 27 May 2005 02:27:32 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 27 May 2005 02:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1Dbb7M-0001Xe-6m for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 02:27:00 -0700 Received: from manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr ([139.179.30.24]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Dbb7G-0001XV-BZ for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 27 May 2005 02:26:59 -0700 Received: by manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr (Postfix, from userid 72) id 0789B33AA5; Fri, 27 May 2005 12:28:00 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [139.179.111.101] (ppp101.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr [139.179.111.101]) by manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F723324BD for ; Fri, 27 May 2005 12:27:59 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <42974CDA.3020307@bilkent.edu.tr> Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 12:37:46 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050322) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20050525155341.78255.qmail@web33411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050525155341.78255.qmail@web33411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-archive-position: 10059 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: robin@bilkent.edu.tr X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-eGroups-From: robin From: robin Reply-To: robin@bilkent.edu.tr Subject: [lojban] Re: Again {lo}. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=qSwz748qZ48WSJ8cGJhvo-Nf4wbllyJyq8T4bffyQDUub5oMvg X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24430 Opi Lauma wrote: >>For example to say that the dog is man's best friend > > you > >>would use {lo gerku}: {lo gerku cu xagrai pendo lo >>remna} > > > OK, in this example {lo gerku} means neither "all > dogs" nor "some dogs", it rather means "most of dogs" > isn't? Really, we can say that "the dog is man's best > friend" only if MOST OF DOGS are man's best friends. > Or the same {lo gerku} can be replaced here by "a > typical dog" without changes in meaning, I think. So, > are "most of ..." and "a typical ..." correct > substitution for {lo}? If "Yes", can this > interpretation be used always? By the way in English > sentence "The" has been used and in lojban {lo}. Why? {lo gerku cu pendo lo remna} means that there is at least one dog, such that it is a friend to at least one human, which is not what we want here. The article you want is probably {lo'e} lo'e gerku cu pendo lo'e remna The typical dog is a friend to the typical human. I'm leaving out the "best" part for simplicity's sake, since then you'd have to rephrase it along the lines of "Of the friends of the typical human, the best one is a dog" or "the best creature by the standard of being a friend to the typical human is the typical dog." > What happens with "the <-> le", "an/a <-> lo" correspondence? That is never more than a very rough guide, and not a very helpful one IMHO. There are three senses of "the" which may make the use of "le" appropriate: the non-veridical sense (e.g. "The Queen Mary" is a ship, not a queen), the specific sense ("the man in the corner") and the old-information sense ("Yesterday I saw a dog. The dog bit me.") Actually the latter sense is more specifically covered by "bi'unai", but "le" will do as a kludge, since it means "the thing I have in mind", and if you've just referred to it, you have it in mind. One use of "the" which isn't covered by "le" is typicality, as we see above. Here's another example from TCLL: lo'e cinfo cu xabju le f'iortu'a The lion dwells in Africa. robin.tr -- "I think perhaps the most important problem is that we are trying to understand the fundamental workings of the universe via a language devised for telling one another where the best fruit is." -- Terry Pratchett Robin Turner IDMYO Bilkent Universitesi Ankara 06533 Turkey www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin