From lojban-out@lojban.org Sat May 28 03:13:05 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 92408 invoked from network); 28 May 2005 10:13:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 28 May 2005 10:13:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 28 May 2005 10:13:05 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DbyID-0003zp-4h for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 28 May 2005 03:11:45 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1DbyHV-0003z7-3m; Sat, 28 May 2005 03:11:06 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 28 May 2005 03:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DbyH9-0003yl-D3 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 03:10:39 -0700 Received: from manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr ([139.179.30.24]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1DbyGz-0003x3-U7 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 28 May 2005 03:10:35 -0700 Received: by manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr (Postfix, from userid 72) id 946D227084; Sat, 28 May 2005 13:11:45 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [139.179.111.101] (ppp101.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr [139.179.111.101]) by manyas.bcc.bilkent.edu.tr (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFE222700D for ; Sat, 28 May 2005 13:11:44 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <4298A89E.1060804@bilkent.edu.tr> Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 13:21:34 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050322) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20050525155341.78255.qmail@web33411.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <42974CDA.3020307@bilkent.edu.tr> <20050527145840.GI21667@chain.digitalkingdom.org> In-Reply-To: <20050527145840.GI21667@chain.digitalkingdom.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-archive-position: 10070 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: robin@bilkent.edu.tr X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-eGroups-From: robin From: robin Reply-To: robin@bilkent.edu.tr Subject: [lojban] Re: Again {lo}. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=16MiHF9CB2aXoZK4IpmvdoQT261DZdbznb4rmks_15Hjmuau_g X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24441 Robin Lee Powell wrote: > On Fri, May 27, 2005 at 12:37:46PM -0400, robin wrote: > >>Opi Lauma wrote: >> >>>>For example to say that the dog is man's best friend >>> >>>you >>> >>> >>>>would use {lo gerku}: {lo gerku cu xagrai pendo lo remna} >>> >>> >>>OK, in this example {lo gerku} means neither "all dogs" nor "some >>>dogs", it rather means "most of dogs" isn't? Really, we can say >>>that "the dog is man's best friend" only if MOST OF DOGS are >>>man's best friends. Or the same {lo gerku} can be replaced here >>>by "a typical dog" without changes in meaning, I think. So, are >>>"most of ..." and "a typical ..." correct substitution for {lo}? >>>If "Yes", can this interpretation be used always? By the way in >>>English sentence "The" has been used and in lojban {lo}. Why? >> >>{lo gerku cu pendo lo remna} means that there is at least one dog, >>such that it is a friend to at least one human, > > > Not under the BPFK it doesn't. > > Or at least, not *necessarily*. > > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=How%20to%20use%20xorlo > > In particular, {lo} can mean {lo'e}, being totally generic. > I hadn't been following the proposed changes to {lo}, but they seem sensible. We need something that simply says "the following is a sumti" in a similar way that {cu} says "the following is a selbri". I'm usually a conservative when it comes to baseline issues, but the baseline {lo} was such a monumental pain for newbies, I wouldn't mind seeing it modified. Even though, my point above remains. Under the orthodox version of {lo}, {lo'e gerku cu pendo lo'e remna} implies {lo gerku cu pendo lo remna} but not vice versa, and the situation is unchanged with xorlo. If you want to say "the dog is man's best friend" and not simply "some dog(s) is/are some man/men's best friend(s)", then {lo'e} is the way you want to go. robin.tr