From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Jun 16 07:02:00 2005 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1Diuw2-00075I-QZ for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:01:35 -0700 Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.197]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Diuvn-00074p-D3 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:01:31 -0700 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 68so495050wri for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:01:18 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=beta; d=gmail.com; h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=tCOsRvoydc5/qNFyuXJRWY69kdrgjgnMX/wAUjsTRLHeu+rhGPKwB1VVOJMlKmcStSObHOE+rmzZZw9+kxheOw3Uf5YMN5Q8fi7NRC7Lz+XWz9s1tWINEIbvvMXtlG5jXCMjlmogcwZY7V8Z1OU5F0+Somv/vpNx/n5yPSAUzHU= Received: by 10.54.10.58 with SMTP id 58mr639071wrj; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.67.20 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d1756050616070125b5cf80@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2005 11:01:18 -0300 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-list@lojban.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Again {xorlo} and Wiki. In-Reply-To: <20050616130023.93807.qmail@web81306.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050616112557.80189.qmail@web33410.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050616130023.93807.qmail@web81306.mail.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 10183 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org X-list: lojban-list On 6/16/05, John E Clifford wrote: > In xorlo, {lo cribe} is > bears, unspecified in every possible way > including number (indeed, unspecifiable without > changing the sumti) Yes! > and {lo pa cribe} is an > uspecified bunch of unit bunches of bears > (typically by context a single such, I think -- > but context is so tricky that "typical" may not > be meaningful). I won't say that's wrong because you are probably using "bunch" in some technical sense, but it doesn't sound right with the ordinary meaning of bunch. Indeed the inner {pa} excludes bunches of bears. Example: lo pa cribe cu tijmau lo re remna A single bear is heavier than two humans. A bunch of bears would be even heavier, of course, but the point here is that one bear is heavier than two humans. > In xorlo, {pa lo cribe} still means > "one out of the referent of {lo cribe}" but that > referent is now (albeit indirectly) definitely at > least all the bears in the world, so {pa lo > cribe} amounts to (thouhg by a differnt route) > {pa da poi cribe}, as it did in CLL. I don't think {pa lo cribe} contains any implicit "in the world", but it certainly differs from {lo pa cribe}. For example: pa lo cribe cu tijmau re lo remna Exactly one bear is heavier than exactly two humans. This means that if we sort bears and humans by weight, from lightest to heaviest, the sequence will start: (Zero or more bears here), Human1, (Zero or more bears here), Human2, Bear1, Human3, ... (Any number of bears and humans here). That is the only way that exactly one bear (Bear1) is heavier than exactly two humans (Human1 and Human2). All other bears are either heavier than less than two humans, or heavier than more than two humans. > Note this > is different from {lo pa cribe}, which allows > that more than one bear does whatever pa lo cribe > does though still gets translated as/ translates > "a/one bear." {lo pa cribe} simply does not allow more than one bear to enter into the picture. Once you allow more than one bear into the picture, {lo pa cribe} is no longer usable. mu'o mi'e xorxes