From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon Jun 13 09:50:26 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 83795 invoked from network); 13 Jun 2005 16:50:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Jun 2005 16:50:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jun 2005 16:50:25 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1Dhs8l-0001iE-0h for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:50:23 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Dhs8U-0001hb-Kc; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:50:08 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1Dhs8I-0001hK-15 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:49:54 -0700 Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.199]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Dhs8F-0001hC-IL for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:49:53 -0700 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 69so1067257wra for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.33.53 with SMTP id g53mr2647915wrg; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.67.20 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 09:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560506130949b9adcf8@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:49:50 -0300 In-Reply-To: <20050613162410.89132.qmail@web81308.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <20050613162410.89132.qmail@web81308.mail.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 10152 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-eGroups-From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= Reply-To: jjllambias@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: Un-definite quantifier. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=d0IAJhlbMNxJs8fLD0zh2fNf5AGbVS-LGBh1WyRncnbd68qiJQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24523 On 6/13/05, John E Clifford wrote: > Almost certainly, for > example, {lo pavyseljirna cu pavyseljirna} is > true in this way as a general claim, even when > there are no unicorns; When there are no unicorns where? The claim can be true when there are no unicorns in the real (physical) world because it almost certainly is not a claim about the real world. {lo namcu cu namcu}, "numbers are numbers" is also true even though there are no numbers in the physical world, because it is clear that {lo namcu} does not refer to a physical object. It is very hard to think of any case in which {lo broda cu broda} would be false for any broda. At worse it would be meaningless {lo fugza cu fugza} if "fugza" is a meaningless word, but even then I would tend to think it is true but I just don't know what fugzas are. > Quantified {lo broda} expressions, on the other > hand, are directly about brodas and so require > that there be some brodas to be true (well, > subject to a lot of conditions about scopes of > negations and the like). Quantifiers need not range over physical objects though. For example {ro namcu cu namcu}, "each number is a number", or {ro selbri cu selbri}, "each relation is a relation", are true, and so would {ro pavyseljirna cu pavyseljirna} in any context I can think of. The fact that {lo broda} > without quantifiers (and with internal > quantifiers) behaves so differently from {le > broda} is one objection to xorlo, the claim being > that absolutely nothing is gained by the > complication invloved. {lo broda} without quantifiers behaves just as {le broda} withouth quantifiers, and indeed like any other sumti without quantifiers. With quantifiers too. For any sumti, we have: PA = PA da poi ke'a me mu'o mi'e xorxes