From lojban-out@lojban.org Thu Jun 09 08:52:08 2005
Return-Path: <lojban-out@lojban.org>
X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org
X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com
Received: (qmail 75263 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2005 15:52:07 -0000
Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166)
  by m22.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Jun 2005 15:52:07 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134)
  by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 2005 15:52:07 -0000
Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50)
	id 1DgPKB-0000zN-6G
	for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 08:52:07 -0700
Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134])
	by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50)
	id 1DgPJu-0000yq-VE; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 08:51:52 -0700
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 09 Jun 2005 08:51:46 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50)
	id 1DgPJi-0000yh-I5
	for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 08:51:38 -0700
Received: from web81310.mail.yahoo.com ([206.190.37.85])
	by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.50)
	id 1DgPJe-0000yZ-Ga
	for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 08:51:38 -0700
Message-ID: <20050609155133.97512.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com>
Received: from [65.69.50.91] by web81310.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 08:51:33 PDT
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 08:51:33 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: 6667
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--)
X-archive-position: 10118
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org
X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net
X-list: lojban-list
X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--)
To: lojban@yahoogroups.com
X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134
X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0
X-eGroups-From: John E Clifford <clifford-j@sbcglobal.net>
From: John E Clifford <lojban-out@lojban.org>
Reply-To: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net
Subject: [lojban] Re: {lo}, {lu'o}, and {loi}.
X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=FOfYzZnirHQMrh55ZojhrSdEEX7oA-uZ-usJltwfFCN40hycSw
X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out
X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24488


--- Jorge Llambías <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
> {lu'o} and {loi} are essentially the same
> thing, the only
> difference is that one takes a selbri and the
> other 
> a sumti:
> 
> lu'o ko'a = lo gunma be ko'a
> loi broda = lo gunma be lo broda


 But of course this apparently semantic
distinction collapses since the sumti may be {lo
broda} -- and indeed often is.

> In both cases, the referents of {ko'a} or the
> brodas
> are said to do something together.
> 
>    loi ci nanmu cu bevri le pipno
>    Three men (together) carry the piano.
> 
> If {ko'a} refers to Andy, Barry and Chris, then
> 
>    lu'o ko'a cu bevri le pipno
> 
> says that they carried the piano together.
> 
Aside from the problems with doing all the
collecrtive/distributive etc. predication with
gadri, making the distinction this way deprives
us of one of the things groups were introduced to
do (a contradictory list, to be sure), name give
corporate responsibility for actions which are
not done jointly or individually but by some part
of the group functioning for the group.