From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon Jun 13 12:34:31 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 19180 invoked from network); 13 Jun 2005 19:34:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 13 Jun 2005 19:34:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jun 2005 19:34:29 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DhuhL-0005F8-BW for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:34:15 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Dhufq-0005Dt-Am; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:32:43 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:32:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1Dhufd-0005Dg-DT for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:32:29 -0700 Received: from web81308.mail.yahoo.com ([206.190.37.83]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Dhufa-0005DX-2h for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:32:29 -0700 Received: (qmail 47276 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Jun 2005 19:32:24 -0000 Message-ID: <20050613193224.47271.qmail@web81308.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [65.69.50.91] by web81308.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:32:24 PDT Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 12:32:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20050613185732.GA13307@chain.digitalkingdom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 10159 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-eGroups-From: John E Clifford From: John E Clifford Reply-To: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Subject: [lojban] Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: zvati X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=SMB5MqLfnk7a-TKEzL3n1B72ADq41etvJ6QpYnMoNGa0S6bMMQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24530 --- Robin Lee Powell wrote: > Moved off of beginners, cuz yeesh. > > On Mon, Jun 13, 2005 at 03:40:54PM -0300, Jorge > Llamb?as wrote: > > On 6/13/05, Robin Lee Powell > wrote: > > > I disagreed that zvati was purely > locational, because of the way > > > the English was written. I have been > convinced that the > > > intention was locational, and have updated > jbovlaste to reflect > > > this. > > > > I think describing {zvati} as "atemporal" > confuses things more > > than anything. Are you going to add > "atemporal" to {zunle}, > > {crane}, {sruri}, {snanu}, and all other > spatial relationships > > too? > > I could if you like. But I don't find any of > them confusing in this > respect; I did find zvati confusing. > > [snip examples] > > > Are all of these "atemporal"? All of them > describe relative > > positions, but normally they describe > simultaneous positions. > > None of them specify that they can operate with > events in both > places, which is what confused me. > > > If I want to say that A is left of where B > was, or in front of > > where B was, or around of where B was, or > south of where B was, > > then that requires a more elaborate > description. Then A is not > > left/in front/around/south of/at B, but > rather it is related to a > > place where B was. > > Depends on context. > > > Spatial relationships assume that the two > things being > > compared are there at the same time. > > Depends on context. > > > {zvati} is not special in this regard, so if > you describe it as > > "atemporal" all the others would be atemporal > too. > > *sigh* > > Look, it's really simple: I find zvati > confusing, because it sounds > to me like it is relating things in both space > and time, rather than > just space. I seem to be wrong. I want to > change the wording to > make the cunfusion I experienced less likely > for others. If you > don't like my wording change, suggest another > one. > Just drop the reference to events in the parentheses -- indeed, drop the parentheses altogether, since we don't want to exclude events, just not mention them to confuse people. Or, of course, add "(object/event)" in all the other cases like {zvati}. (Are spatial metaphors used for time to be excluded or are they covered by some other device?)