From lojban-out@lojban.org Thu Jun 09 12:03:25 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 27457 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2005 19:03:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.166) by m26.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Jun 2005 19:03:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta5.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Jun 2005 19:03:25 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DgSJE-0004PJ-Tb for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 12:03:21 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1DgSIu-0004Of-Q4; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 12:03:03 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 09 Jun 2005 12:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.50) id 1DgSIi-0004OU-Eg for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 12:02:48 -0700 Received: from web81307.mail.yahoo.com ([206.190.37.82]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.50) id 1DgSIf-0004OI-Jx for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 12:02:48 -0700 Message-ID: <20050609190244.91281.qmail@web81307.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [65.69.50.91] by web81307.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 09 Jun 2005 12:02:44 PDT Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2005 12:02:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: 6667 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 10121 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-eGroups-From: John E Clifford From: John E Clifford Reply-To: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Subject: [lojban] Re: {lo}, {lu'o}, and {loi}. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=MkJ831xOr-wAWowgtTrOrEnC3ZyIXwLVri47PJvTatIfQ5Z_nQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24491 --- Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 6/9/05, John E Clifford > wrote: > > Aside from the problems with doing all the > > collecrtive/distributive etc. predication > with > > gadri, making the distinction this way > deprives > > us of one of the things groups were > introduced to > > do (a contradictory list, to be sure), name > give > > corporate responsibility for actions which > are > > not done jointly or individually but by some > part > > of the group functioning for the group. > > I think the general principle is that Lojban > does not > force you to make a distinction when the > distinction > is not relevant, but allows you to make it when > it is. > So if the distinction between group and > subgroup > functioning for the group is not relevant, you > don't have > to make it. When it becomes relevant, you can > say > for example {lo krati pagbu be ko'a} instead of > {ko'a}. > Quite right; we don't have to use {lu'o} or even {loi}. And with this device we could dodge the responsibility every time by a circumlocution of this sort. But it is not clear that the person(s) who do these things is in any meaningful sense a representative of the larger group -- a part yes (including, of course, the whole) but perhaps representative only in the rather circular sense that he did in fact do what the whole is said to do (which has limited explanatory power). The whole is rather trickier when dealing with named groups: the Chrysler Corporation to cite the old example: there is no warning that this is a group and yet the various kinds of prediction clearly make significant differences on some occasions -- sometimes with the same predicates. So, we may occasionally need the distinction and it is nice to have it directly, not jury-rigged together on an ad hoc basis.