From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri Aug 05 11:38:18 2005
Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 05 Aug 2005 11:38:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52)
	id 1E1757-0000w5-Sc
	for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 11:38:09 -0700
Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.193])
	by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52)
	id 1E1755-0000vy-6Q
	for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 11:38:09 -0700
Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i23so732508wra
        for <lojban-list@lojban.org>; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 11:38:05 -0700 (PDT)
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws;
        s=beta; d=gmail.com;
        h=received:message-id:date:from:reply-to:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references;
        b=cQGgC4jhif58p7Ux4pLbPXVmfjVFyoRCUeB2d1rUUbP9b8NlublIs82cIgEahsEvvrWOG8VP6OK/gQHlEgv1en5SFt7L0TWTNz5WoaA0ChPFXJhVoFb6B8wkO1ZwHTT6afFSsj2ctmIfUqIGqmzolxT3l7XvuI7yNUVd4AmrSOE=
Received: by 10.54.111.11 with SMTP id j11mr2190685wrc;
        Fri, 05 Aug 2005 11:38:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.54.68.12 with HTTP; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:38:05 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <925d175605080511385cf3b571@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 15:38:05 -0300
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
To: lojban-list@lojban.org
Subject: [lojban] Re: the meter is a unit of length
In-Reply-To: <20050805165024.40252.qmail@web81302.mail.yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis
Content-Disposition: inline
References: <925d175605080508477e36dab2@mail.gmail.com>
	 <20050805165024.40252.qmail@web81302.mail.yahoo.com>
X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--)
X-archive-position: 10312
X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0
Sender: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org
Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org
X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com
Precedence: bulk
Reply-to: lojban-list@lojban.org
X-list: lojban-list

On 8/5/05, John E Clifford <clifford-j@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > I'd say {mapti} for that type of scale.
> 
> How exactly  will that work? For "x has value y
> on scale z"  we have {x mapti y z} or maybe
> something more complex at the z place?

Maybe. Or maybe {ckini} could be used instead
of {mapti}.


> > For example, CLL contrasts it with {ka}:
> >
> > <<
> > 5.4)  le pixra cu cenba le ka ce'u blanu [kei]
> >     the picture varies in-the property-of (X is
> > blue)
> >     The picture varies in being blue.
> >     The picture varies in blueness.
> >
> > is not the same as
> > 5.5)  le pixra cu cenba le ni ce'u blanu [kei]
> >     the picture varies in-the amount-of (X is
> > blue)
> >     The picture varies in how blue it is.
> >     The picture varies in blueness.
> >
> > Example 5.4 conveys that the blueness comes and
> > goes, whereas Example
> > 5.5 conveys that its quantity changes over
> > time.
> > >>
> OK (?) So 5.4 is true just in case the picture is
> sometimes blue (does that mean is seen as blue
> rather than say green -- as a whole -- or
> contains some blue pigment) 

That would depend on what counts as {lo pixra cu blanu}
in the context.

> and sometimes not.
> In 5.5, this amounts to the value being somwtimes
> positive (or perhaps greater than some specified
> value), sometimes 0 (or less than the specified
> value).  So {ni} is clearly different from {ka}
> but this {ni} is not clearly different from the
> earlier one: value on some scale.

I see a clear difference between the value (for 
example {li pinoci}) and the property of having 
some value (for example {lo ka ce'u blanu se 
la'u li pinoci). 

> Well, I still haven't plumbed the depths of {se
> la'u}, but it looks to me that what you are
> talking about is just the difference between and
> all or none notion (ka}, and a finer grained one
> {ni} (and, of course, {jei] can derive from
> either (more or less directly)). 

That would be the difference CLL claims exists between
the two examples, yes.

The difference between the two senses of {ni} 
(the one I most often see in definitions vs. the one
I most often see in use) is the difference between 
a number or a value on a scale, and a property or
having a value on a scale.

mu'o mi'e xorxes


To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org
with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if
you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.