From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon Aug 15 12:03:05 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 54129 invoked from network); 15 Aug 2005 19:03:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m21.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 15 Aug 2005 19:03:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Aug 2005 19:03:04 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1E4kEY-0002NZ-1G for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:02:54 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1E4kEA-0002Mq-Up; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:02:35 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:02:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1E4kDt-0002Mg-Ko for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:02:13 -0700 Received: from web81305.mail.yahoo.com ([206.190.37.80]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1E4kDr-0002MX-9V for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:02:13 -0700 Received: (qmail 88872 invoked by uid 60001); 15 Aug 2005 19:02:10 -0000 Message-ID: <20050815190210.88870.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.88.33.134] by web81305.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:02:10 PDT Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 12:02:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <925d175605081510036adc23a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-archive-position: 10370 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-eGroups-From: John E Clifford From: John E Clifford Reply-To: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Subject: [lojban] Re: Loglish: A Modest Proposal X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=wVWU_SsM8WPxVYS9yoHKXC_wrxDniz_MQ_thcMZu3OZRQAGCew X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24748 --- Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 8/15/05, Ben Goertzel > wrote: > > > > As an example of the algorithms I described > in my prior mail, suppose > > someone says > > > > "Ben murder chicken pliers quu weapon" > > > > This means that "Ben murders chickens using > pliers as a weapon" > > > > Wouldn't you need: > > la Ben cu murder lo chicken lo pliers quu > weapon > > ? Otherwise, it might be taken to mean "Ben is > a murderous chicken > using pliers as a weapon" or "Ben is a > murderously chickeny > pliers-as-a-weapon" or "Lo! there's Ben type-of > murderously chickeny > pliers-as-aweapon!" or something else. (I'm not > sure if names > can be recognized as sumti in Loglish even > without {la}, or whether > "pliers quu weapon" can be taken as a sumti > even without a gadri. > You might also need to distinguish "chicken quu > animal" from > "chicken quu coward".) Thanks. I was trying to figure out what this had to do with Lojban and had almost gotten to wondering how you tell predicates from arguments in all this. I assume that -- as is usual with AI prospectuses -- as these problems are pointed out, devices will be found (or at least claimed) to deal with them. Fow now (as usual, agqin) we are left with a good display and unremarked amounts of pre-editing, post-editing and just plain cheating in the middle. Of the latter, I note that neither "murder" nor "kill," its supposed surrogate, is three-placed in English ("He killed her a knife" is not English -- or, rather, means that he bagged a wild knife for her) and neither is connected with conflict or violence to make a connection with "weapon," so the analysis does not go off as it appears to in the text. That does not mean it does not go off, of course, but it must be more complex (and possibly more ad hoc) than suggested. Lacking a quick connection between "murder" and "plier quu weapon" one wonders how to keep this from being "Ben murdered the chicken who had a plier." Presumably Loglish must have some way of marking off modification of arguments from modification of the main predicate. Given the paucity of reference to Lojban, it is not clear what it might be (it probably can't be the Lojban device with {be}, given the conflict with English "be." And speaking of missing Lojban, why "plier quu weapon" (which isn't even very accurate for most cases of "murdering" chickens), rather than the Lojban instrumental case marker {se pi'o}? From the point of view of Lojban, this suggestion is mainly irrelevant. It is not obviously more relevant from the point of view of predicate logic. The nearest things from that field would be (for basic stuff) "Ben murder_x_with y & x chicken & y pliers" (or its particular closure) or (advanced) "Ben murder_ a chicken _with a plier." I think the practical issues motivating this suggestion have real merit; I just don't think it concerns Lojban (nor -- yet -- predicate logic). To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.