From lojban-out@lojban.org Thu Aug 04 16:08:16 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 11451 invoked from network); 4 Aug 2005 23:08:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Aug 2005 23:08:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Aug 2005 23:08:15 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1E0oow-0008Tx-4W for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:08:14 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1E0omt-0008SG-0s; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:06:14 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1E0omb-0008S6-Iz for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:05:49 -0700 Received: from web81309.mail.yahoo.com ([206.190.37.84]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1E0omY-0008Ry-Vp for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:05:49 -0700 Received: (qmail 49201 invoked by uid 60001); 4 Aug 2005 23:05:45 -0000 Message-ID: <20050804230545.49199.qmail@web81309.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.143.141.46] by web81309.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 04 Aug 2005 16:05:45 PDT Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2005 16:05:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <925d1756050804113558366203@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-archive-position: 10305 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-eGroups-From: John E Clifford From: John E Clifford Reply-To: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Subject: [lojban] Re: the meter is a unit of length X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=7ABi2Zx65eZSxFsX23iA3dW0smXnKnNovg7T410FbQP3DPSBUQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24682 --- Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 8/4/05, John E Clifford > wrote: > > What we mean when we say the English > > sentence is something like {le se mitre cu ni > > clani}, "How many meters a thing is is its > > length," more or less (we could fill in some > of > > the blanks for greater precision here). > > {le se mitre} is a pure number. We can say, for > example > > le se mitre be ti cu du le se grake be ta > The number of meters of this is the the > number > of grams of that. Yes > {ni} has been used or described both as a klani > and as > a se klani. If it's a se klani, then {lo se > mitre cu ni ...} > can make sense. Iyt is a measure on some scale, which would typically (but not necessarily) be numeric. > lo mitre cu klani > lo se mitre cu se klani > > {ni} may be one of those, or perhaps something > else > ({ka (se) la'u ma kau}, for example). I find the definition of {klani} unusually opaque (which, given many of the other definitions, is very opaque indeed); what is a quantity other than a reading on some scale? We may not know the value (nor the scale, come ro that) in a particular case, but that does not mean there is no quantity involved; just that we don't know what it is (everything can be quantized?) > > This > > doesn't *say* that the meter is a unit of > length, > > but does the work that claim is meant to do > and > > so implicates it. Given Lojban's > predicatizing > > of measures, it is a little hard to see what > can > > go in for the first place of {gradu}, if that > > word means anything like its English > translation > > (which it very well may not, of course -- and > > this problem seems some indication that it > does > > not). > > I would say that the x1 of gradu is like the x1 > of mitre > and of klani. This doesn't look right. x1 of {gradu}is a unit of measurement, x1 of {klani} is a magnitude on a scalem so presumably a number or some such thing, x1 of {mitre} is a physical object (which x1 of {gradu} may be, but need not be, and x1 of {klani} can't be). This may be as close as Lojban gets to a Whorf effect: meters can't be things here so we have to find some new way of talking (and thinking?) around what we usually say taking a meter to be a sort (but what sort?) of thing. > lo gradu be ko'a = lo klani be li pa bei > ko'a > > > > > What is the difference between the x2 and > x3 of > > > {gradu}? > > > > Trusting the English more than seems > justified, > > x2 is a scale (presumably a system of > measures: > > vaious units and some external specifications > of > > them (the old scratch on a platinum-iridium > bar > > or some weird multiple of the wavelength of > some > > color in some spectrum). It is interesting > that > > that is marked as {si'o}, the same as one > > suggested marker to convert {mitre} into "is > a > > meter." > > The gi'uste more or less consistently proposes > {si'o} > for "scales", whatever they are: Yes, this is as hard a question -- or worse -- than what a concept/idea is -- in this case, where it is clearly not whatever it is we usually think a concept or idea is (and that whole can of worms we will, I hope, avoid altogether). > ckilu [ ci'u ] scale > x1 (si'o) is a scale of units for > measuring/observing/determining x2 (state) > > gradu [ rau ] unit ; 'degree, grad' > x1 [magnitude] is a unit/degree of/on > scale/reference standard x2 > (si'o) measuring property x3 > > klani [ lai ] quantity > x1 is a quantity quantified/measured/enumerated > by x2 (quantifier) on > scale x3 (si'o) Really? "quantity" in that sense (a bunch of things)? If so, scratch the remark about {klani} above and enroll {ni} as a se klani. One would, however, have expected {klani} to have a place for the sort of things involved, if this was the real meaning:"The Giants are a quantity of baseball players (coming up- to nine on a head count)" > merli [ mre ] measure > x1 (agent) measures/evaluates x2 [quantity] as > x3 units on scale x4 > (si'o), with accuracy x5 > > dukti [ dut ] opposite ; 'contrary' > x1 is polar opposite from/contrary to x2 in > property/on scale x3 > (property/si'o) I wonder which this really is, polar opposite or contrary (point or area, or specific v indefinite). "Contrary" makes the best sense. > But it is not clear to me how a bridi gets > converted to a scale, > and also {si'o} is proposed for very different > things in {bangu}, > {klesi}, {manri}, {sidbo}, {sucta} and {tanru}. Where it seems to mean something related to the usual array of abstract objects used for to explicate meaning -- and some times the not so abstract psychological entities as well (just as bad as English "idea" or "concept" in fact, though not obviously the same). > > x3 is just some property (or, more > > likely, the quantitative aspect of some > property > > -- {ni}) > > If ni is the quantitative aspect of a property > (which I might > write as {ka se la'u ma kau ...}) then it's not > clear how it can > be a number, like se mitre, se klani, te merli > or namcu. > Well it is again a reading on a scale (and an amount, at least sometimes)so numbers seem natural for many cases -- or numeroid things like "huge." (Suggesting a reading involving {la'u} doesn't help a lot, since the rules for that -- and the meaning when properly used -- are even less clear than those for {ni}, as far as I can find.) To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.