From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri Aug 05 07:43:04 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 91300 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2005 14:42:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Aug 2005 14:42:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 2005 14:42:38 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1E13P7-0006BO-Je for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:42:33 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1E13Ne-0006AT-9x; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:41:06 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:40:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1E13NK-0006AK-5s for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:40:42 -0700 Received: from web81304.mail.yahoo.com ([206.190.37.79]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1E13NH-0006AC-H6 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:40:42 -0700 Received: (qmail 30162 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Aug 2005 14:40:34 -0000 Message-ID: <20050805144034.30160.qmail@web81304.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.143.141.46] by web81304.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:40:34 PDT Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 07:40:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <925d17560508041900568c2480@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-archive-position: 10308 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-eGroups-From: John E Clifford From: John E Clifford Reply-To: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Subject: [lojban] Re: the meter is a unit of length X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=7D-BgnZlTeFg7h5GtpXtkcrNTJLY14sLpdA4u_zIdZ5jG_OZqw X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24685 --- Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 8/4/05, John E Clifford > wrote: > > > klani [ lai ] quantity > > > x1 is a quantity > quantified/measured/enumerated > > > by x2 (quantifier) on > > > scale x3 (si'o) > > > > Really? "quantity" in that sense (a bunch of > > things)? If so, scratch the remark about > {klani} > > above and enroll {ni} as a se klani. One > would, > > however, have expected {klani} to have a > place > > for the sort of things involved, if this was > the > > real meaning:"The Giants are a quantity of > > baseball players (coming up- to nine on a > head > > count)" > > I would say: > > la djaiants cu klani li so lo kelci > The Giants amount to nine in players. > > but then I favour changing the x3 of klani to > the more straightforward > "units", rather than the more abstract "scale". > If you want to keep > a scale there, then you can say the same thing > in a more roundabout > way: > > la djaiants cu klani li so lo se gradu be lo > kelci > The Giants amount to nine on a scale whose > units are players. > > This sidesteps the issue of how to refer to a > scale by using the units > instead (lo se gradu be ...). Another way of > sidestepping it would > be {lo ckilu be ...}, here using the property > instead of the scale: > > la djaiants cu klani li so lo ckilu be lo ka > xo kau kelci cu cmima ce'u > The Giants amount to nine on a scale for > measuring how many players > it has. > > In any case, a simple {la djaiants cu klani li > so} will probably be understood > with the "right" x3 in many contexts. Of course, this leaves out the scales that are not numeric (more or less): I remember the old phallometer for measuring the arousal power of porn and ranged from "flaccid" to "rock hard, extra long and straight" or some such terms. I suppose those could be assigned numbers, but that seems less than enlightening. I also suppose that as a place on {klani}, x2 is more or less required to be numeric, since "limp," for example, is hardly a quantity or a measure of same. > But how we can describe a scale other than as > {lo se gradu be...} or´ > {lo ckilu be...}, I don't know. > > > > dukti [ dut ] opposite ; 'contrary' > > > x1 is polar opposite from/contrary to x2 in > > > property/on scale x3 > > > (property/si'o) > > > > I wonder which this really is, polar opposite > or > > contrary (point or area, or specific v > > indefinite). "Contrary" makes the best sense. > > lo zunle cu dukti lo pritu > lo berti cu dukti lo snanu > lo barda cu dukti lo cmalu > lo broda cu dukti lo to'e broda So, "opposite point" then. "contrary" is just a mistake. > > > > If ni is the quantitative aspect of a > property > > > (which I might > > > write as {ka se la'u ma kau ...}) then it's > not > > > clear how it can > > > be a number, like se mitre, se klani, te > merli > > > or namcu. > > > > > Well it is again a reading on a scale (and an > > amount, at least sometimes)so numbers seem > > natural for many cases -- or numeroid things > like > > "huge." > > (Suggesting a reading involving {la'u} > doesn't > > help a lot, since the rules for that -- and > the > > meaning when properly used -- are even less > clear > > than those for {ni}, as far as I can find.) > > For me the problem with {ni} is not so much > unclarity of > the possible meanings, there are basically > three that I can > identify, each pretty clear. The problem is > that there is no > consistency in sticking with just one of them, > even for the > same person. > Spell out please, I think I have only thought of the value-on-a-scale sense (forcing the creation of some rather strange scales). To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.