From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri Aug 05 08:51:36 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 17554 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2005 15:50:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Aug 2005 15:50:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 2005 15:50:57 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1E14Rm-00076l-BZ for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 08:49:22 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1E14Qk-000769-3F; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 08:48:20 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 05 Aug 2005 08:48:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1E14QS-00075m-T6 for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 08:48:01 -0700 Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.196]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1E14QP-00075d-VM for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 08:48:00 -0700 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i23so679155wra for ; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 08:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.10.23 with SMTP id 23mr2587869wrj; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 08:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.68.12 with HTTP; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 08:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d175605080508477e36dab2@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 12:47:56 -0300 In-Reply-To: <20050805144034.30160.qmail@web81304.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d17560508041900568c2480@mail.gmail.com> <20050805144034.30160.qmail@web81304.mail.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 10310 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-eGroups-From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= Reply-To: jjllambias@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: the meter is a unit of length X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=x9zBDn5MLoU2sQi4laZ_-xZOIeFj_QD4fbFL7E3xyB6J0pJkiA X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24687 On 8/5/05, John E Clifford wrote: > Of course, this leaves out the scales that are > not numeric (more or less): I remember the old > phallometer for measuring the arousal power of > porn and ranged from "flaccid" to "rock hard, > extra long and straight" or some such terms. I > suppose those could be assigned numbers, but that > seems less than enlightening. I also suppose > that as a place on {klani}, x2 is more or less > required to be numeric, since "limp," for > example, is hardly a quantity or a measure of > same. I'd say {mapti} for that type of scale. > > For me the problem with {ni} is not so much > > unclarity of > > the possible meanings, there are basically > > three that I can > > identify, each pretty clear. The problem is > > that there is no > > consistency in sticking with just one of them, > > even for the > > same person. > > > Spell out please, I think I have only thought of > the value-on-a-scale sense (forcing the creation > of some rather strange scales). That one is the most commonly used in definitions, and probably what agrees most with what the ma'oste says: ni [ nil ] amount abstract abstractor: quantity/amount abstractor; x1 is quantity/amount of [bridi] measured on scale x2 But when we get down to actual examples, or usage, that meaning is hardly seen at all, probably because it is not very useful. For example, CLL contrasts it with {ka}: << 5.4) le pixra cu cenba le ka ce'u blanu [kei] the picture varies in-the property-of (X is blue) The picture varies in being blue. The picture varies in blueness. is not the same as 5.5) le pixra cu cenba le ni ce'u blanu [kei] the picture varies in-the amount-of (X is blue) The picture varies in how blue it is. The picture varies in blueness. Example 5.4 conveys that the blueness comes and goes, whereas Example 5.5 conveys that its quantity changes over time. >> where {ni} is something like {ka se la'u ma kau} as opposed to {ka xu kau}. This is what I would say is the more useful meaning of {ni}, and is the one indirectly supported by the gi'uste, that has ka/ni suggested for many places, for example with comparatives. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.