From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri Aug 26 14:00:03 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 18755 invoked from network); 26 Aug 2005 21:00:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.217) by m8.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 26 Aug 2005 21:00:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta2.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Aug 2005 21:00:02 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1E8lIu-0008Lm-IC for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 14:00:00 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1E8lHa-0008Kw-PM; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 13:58:46 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 26 Aug 2005 13:58:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1E8lHJ-0008Kn-Eb for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 13:58:21 -0700 Received: from [208.234.8.229] (helo=intelligenesiscorp.com) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1E8lHF-0008Kg-2t for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 13:58:21 -0700 Received: from zombiethustra (pcp06586041pcs.nrockv01.md.comcast.net [69.140.24.121]) by intelligenesiscorp.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id j7QKwAUK012829 for ; Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:58:12 -0400 Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 16:58:14 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20050826172159.13521.qmail@web81302.mail.yahoo.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by intelligenesiscorp.com id j7QKwAUK012829 X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 10451 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: ben@goertzel.org X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-eGroups-From: "Ben Goertzel" From: "Ben Goertzel" Reply-To: ben@goertzel.org Subject: [lojban] Re: Loglish X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=Y_SYyzyFby7BHkadoOYTDm1MTgLHy5C93KWIkLAAkxWdJGBirQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24831 > Minor comments: > You introduce {fi'o} as being like "qui" but have > not said anything about "qui." I assume you mean > {zei}, although {fi'o} does not - in your usage > -- look much like {zei}. Based on the issue with terminators (zei doesn't have one), I have now reverted to qui instead of zei in the latest edit > You use "la ben proceed lo to fi’o store" and the > like, where Lojban with English vocab would have > "la ben (cu) proceed fi'o to lo store' I suspect > the {cu} is needed, since the limits of cmene is > not defined in Loglish and the same would apply > (at least in speech) to "la mei_li think vo'a" > and subsequent examples. The point here however > is about the relative order of "prepositions" and > "articles." You are right, the cu is needed You are also right that my word-ordering with fi'o was not consistent with Lojban syntax, and I have also now corrected that. > Example 2: la rena go le suburb be la Melbourne > probably should be "la rena cu eng go lo suburb > be la Melbourne;" {cu} as noted above, {lo} for > indefinite reference, "eng go" per your earlier > discussion. Correct > mi djuno ledu’u zo’e kau cilre la loglish > Well, {loglic} to begin with (or {loglec}, if the > short vowel seems more natural). I can't figure > out {zo'e kau} in Lojban: {kau} attaches to > interrogative words to signal indirect questions, > so maybe {ma kau} is meant: "I know who is > learning Loglish." This misses the first half of > the English (except by implication -- if I know > who it is there must be someone). On the other > hand, without the {kau} in the original, we get > the not very illuminating "I know that (you know > who/someone it doesn't matter who) is learning > Loglish," which misses the second part. the > problems carry over to the Loglish (I think > {zo'e} is a bad choice here in any case, but that > seems to be idiosyncratic). Well, " mi djuno ledu'u zo'e kau cilre la lojban. I know someone is learning Lojban, and I know who it is. " is straight from the Lojban introductory text http://ptolemy.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/less15.html so if there are problems with it, I'm not to blame in this particular instance ;-) > la Ben cu murder lo chicken lo weapon fi’o pliers > Realtive order of {lo} and {fi'o} again (and > maybe of {fi'o} and "weapon," but I have to see > how this plays out. > You later claim that this cannot be a chicken > with pliers, but the resolution appears to be > semantic, not grammatical. Lojban would insist > on a grammatical disambiguation. Lojbanizing the use of fi'o yields " la Ben cu murder lo chicken fi’o weapon lo pliers " Regarding your point about whose argument the fi'o specifies -- I believe this is unproblematic, becaues the fi'o clearly tells whose argument "lo pliers" fits into, and "lo pliers" is clearly fitting into *some* argument of "murder." To have "lo pliers" fit into some argument of "chicken" one would have to use "be" or some other similar mechanism, I believe. Thanks again, -- Ben To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.