From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri Aug 05 09:52:43 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 67112 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2005 16:52:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.167) by m32.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Aug 2005 16:52:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 2005 16:52:37 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1E15Qz-0007r2-4p for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 09:52:37 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1E15PF-0007q3-H8; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 09:50:54 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 05 Aug 2005 09:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1E15Ow-0007pt-To for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 09:50:31 -0700 Received: from web81302.mail.yahoo.com ([206.190.37.77]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1E15Os-0007ph-Tm for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 09:50:30 -0700 Received: (qmail 40254 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Aug 2005 16:50:24 -0000 Message-ID: <20050805165024.40252.qmail@web81302.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [66.143.141.46] by web81302.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 09:50:24 PDT Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 09:50:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <925d175605080508477e36dab2@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-archive-position: 10311 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-eGroups-From: John E Clifford From: John E Clifford Reply-To: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Subject: [lojban] Re: the meter is a unit of length X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=uaJBQNUNRPaqLqNmguu3c-VLRhBOx3qfX9kxtgXPGz2oyP4zfQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24688 --- Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 8/5/05, John E Clifford > wrote: > > Of course, this leaves out the scales that > are > > not numeric (more or less): I remember the > old > > phallometer for measuring the arousal power > of > > porn and ranged from "flaccid" to "rock hard, > > extra long and straight" or some such terms. > I > > suppose those could be assigned numbers, but > that > > seems less than enlightening. I also suppose > > that as a place on {klani}, x2 is more or > less > > required to be numeric, since "limp," for > > example, is hardly a quantity or a measure of > > same. > > I'd say {mapti} for that type of scale. How exactly will that work? For "x has value y on scale z" we have {x mapti y z} or maybe something more complex at the z place? > > > For me the problem with {ni} is not so much > > > unclarity of > > > the possible meanings, there are basically > > > three that I can > > > identify, each pretty clear. The problem is > > > that there is no > > > consistency in sticking with just one of > them, > > > even for the > > > same person. > > > > > Spell out please, I think I have only thought > of > > the value-on-a-scale sense (forcing the > creation > > of some rather strange scales). > > That one is the most commonly used in > definitions, and > probably what agrees most with what the ma'oste > says: > > ni [ nil ] amount abstract > abstractor: quantity/amount abstractor; > x1 is quantity/amount of [bridi] measured on > scale x2 > > But when we get down to actual examples, or > usage, that > meaning is hardly seen at all, probably because > it is not > very useful. > > For example, CLL contrasts it with {ka}: > > << > 5.4) le pixra cu cenba le ka ce'u blanu [kei] > the picture varies in-the property-of (X is > blue) > The picture varies in being blue. > The picture varies in blueness. > > is not the same as > 5.5) le pixra cu cenba le ni ce'u blanu [kei] > the picture varies in-the amount-of (X is > blue) > The picture varies in how blue it is. > The picture varies in blueness. > > Example 5.4 conveys that the blueness comes and > goes, whereas Example > 5.5 conveys that its quantity changes over > time. > >> OK (?) So 5.4 is true just in case the picture is sometimes blue (does that mean is seen as blue rather than say green -- as a whole -- or contains some blue pigment) and sometimes not. In 5.5, this amounts to the value being somwtimes positive (or perhaps greater than some specified value), sometimes 0 (or less than the specified value). So {ni} is clearly different from {ka} but this {ni} is not clearly different from the earlier one: value on some scale. > where {ni} is something like {ka se la'u ma > kau} as opposed > to {ka xu kau}. This is what I would say is the > more useful > meaning of {ni}, and is the one indirectly > supported by the > gi'uste, that has ka/ni suggested for many > places, for example > with comparatives. > Well, I still haven't plumbed the depths of {se la'u}, but it looks to me that what you are talking about is just the difference between and all or none notion (ka}, and a finer grained one {ni} (and, of course, {jei] can derive from either (more or less directly)). But I still don't see how this is different from a value on a scale. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.