From lojban-out@lojban.org Mon Aug 08 18:10:28 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 53040 invoked from network); 9 Aug 2005 01:10:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 9 Aug 2005 01:10:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Aug 2005 01:10:27 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1E2IdJ-0004OL-3L for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:10:21 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1E2Ibp-0004KV-MS; Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:08:56 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1E2IbY-0004Jp-EW for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:08:32 -0700 Received: from zproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.162.203]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1E2IbQ-0004Ij-O2 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:08:32 -0700 Received: by zproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id 4so89234nzn for ; Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.251.33 with SMTP id y33mr559231nzh; Mon, 08 Aug 2005 18:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.67.6 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Aug 2005 18:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <737b61f30508081808767b7b5b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 20:08:22 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 10320 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: pdf23ds@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-eGroups-From: Chris Capel From: Chris Capel Reply-To: pdf23ds@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] ji'i X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=wFh82bqQQizrLnh7x7pQv-H2gMfoyTorpRtol9lA9BaoUoJelw X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24698 Hi list, I've decided to start reading Alice in lojban as a way to learn it (along with a flash-card program). To my surprise, the second bridi already contained a usage that appears to go against CLL, using {ji'i} in the middle of a string of digits. The CLL sense (in which Broca on IRC regularly uses it) is to convey that the following digits are approximate, and the preceeding more exact. However, the sense that it's used ({i abuboi paji'ireroi sutra zgana le cukta poi le mensi cu tcidu}), it seems to want to split up the two digits around it into two separate numbers, establishing the bounds of an approximate range. xorxes attests to this usage. Which is more common? Which is more useful? It seems that the BPFK have proposed to change the definition. "Number subgrammar", authored by xorxes, directly explains his non-standard usage. Otherwise, la alis. should probably be fixed. I can see where the standard usage would be more useful in stating scientific measurements, as it could easily delineate where the significant digits stop. The range usage, however, would be difficult to use with large or precise numbers, as it would require stating many digits twice (as in, {pamuxapino ji'i pamuxapire}). On the other hand, for many colloquial uses, usually with only one or two significant digits, the range ugage could well be more intuitive and useful (as attested to by its spontaneous (to my knowledge) appearance). I might have taken this discussion to the relevant BPFK discussion page, but that feature of the wiki is down at the moment, and the wiki itself is having some other problems. Chris Capel -- "What is it like to be a bat? What is it like to bat a bee? What is it like to be a bee being batted? What is it like to be a batted bee?" -- The Mind's I (Hofstadter, Dennet) To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.