From lojban-out@lojban.org Fri Aug 05 11:40:27 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 59716 invoked from network); 5 Aug 2005 18:40:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.218) by m27.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 5 Aug 2005 18:40:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta3.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Aug 2005 18:40:26 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1E177G-0000xc-38 for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 11:40:22 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1E175Q-0000wE-0L; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 11:38:35 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Fri, 05 Aug 2005 11:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1E1757-0000w5-Sc for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 11:38:09 -0700 Received: from wproxy.gmail.com ([64.233.184.193]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1E1755-0000vy-6Q for lojban-list@lojban.org; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 11:38:09 -0700 Received: by wproxy.gmail.com with SMTP id i23so732508wra for ; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 11:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.111.11 with SMTP id j11mr2190685wrc; Fri, 05 Aug 2005 11:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.54.68.12 with HTTP; Fri, 5 Aug 2005 11:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d175605080511385cf3b571@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 15:38:05 -0300 In-Reply-To: <20050805165024.40252.qmail@web81302.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <925d175605080508477e36dab2@mail.gmail.com> <20050805165024.40252.qmail@web81302.mail.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-archive-position: 10312 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0 X-eGroups-From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= Reply-To: jjllambias@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: the meter is a unit of length X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=jPwOP-i5j_LxllvT-Uow21RuDk3yAtq_jW07TYQYfy6h8tnjqQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24689 On 8/5/05, John E Clifford wrote: > > I'd say {mapti} for that type of scale. > > How exactly will that work? For "x has value y > on scale z" we have {x mapti y z} or maybe > something more complex at the z place? Maybe. Or maybe {ckini} could be used instead of {mapti}. > > For example, CLL contrasts it with {ka}: > > > > << > > 5.4) le pixra cu cenba le ka ce'u blanu [kei] > > the picture varies in-the property-of (X is > > blue) > > The picture varies in being blue. > > The picture varies in blueness. > > > > is not the same as > > 5.5) le pixra cu cenba le ni ce'u blanu [kei] > > the picture varies in-the amount-of (X is > > blue) > > The picture varies in how blue it is. > > The picture varies in blueness. > > > > Example 5.4 conveys that the blueness comes and > > goes, whereas Example > > 5.5 conveys that its quantity changes over > > time. > > >> > OK (?) So 5.4 is true just in case the picture is > sometimes blue (does that mean is seen as blue > rather than say green -- as a whole -- or > contains some blue pigment) That would depend on what counts as {lo pixra cu blanu} in the context. > and sometimes not. > In 5.5, this amounts to the value being somwtimes > positive (or perhaps greater than some specified > value), sometimes 0 (or less than the specified > value). So {ni} is clearly different from {ka} > but this {ni} is not clearly different from the > earlier one: value on some scale. I see a clear difference between the value (for example {li pinoci}) and the property of having some value (for example {lo ka ce'u blanu se la'u li pinoci). > Well, I still haven't plumbed the depths of {se > la'u}, but it looks to me that what you are > talking about is just the difference between and > all or none notion (ka}, and a finer grained one > {ni} (and, of course, {jei] can derive from > either (more or less directly)). That would be the difference CLL claims exists between the two examples, yes. The difference between the two senses of {ni} (the one I most often see in definitions vs. the one I most often see in use) is the difference between a number or a value on a scale, and a property or having a value on a scale. mu'o mi'e xorxes To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.