From lojban-out@lojban.org Sat Aug 27 09:32:39 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 95086 invoked from network); 27 Aug 2005 16:32:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.216) by m30.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 27 Aug 2005 16:32:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta1.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Aug 2005 16:32:38 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1E93aw-00045G-Og for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:31:50 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1E93ZV-00044Z-7D; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:30:25 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:30:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1E93ZD-00044G-0u for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:30:03 -0700 Received: from web81306.mail.yahoo.com ([206.190.37.81]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1E93Z9-000445-27 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:30:02 -0700 Received: (qmail 12841 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Aug 2005 16:29:57 -0000 Message-ID: <20050827162957.12839.qmail@web81306.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.88.32.165] by web81306.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:29:57 PDT Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2005 09:29:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-archive-position: 10460 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-eGroups-From: John E Clifford From: John E Clifford Reply-To: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Subject: [lojban] Re: Loglish X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=p3Bo9pISczwpVbzb14Fo706BvU5He_zlT3yPM4_CENb_gP4ouQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24840 --- Ben Goertzel wrote: > > mi djuno ledu’u zo’e kau cilre la loglish > > Well, {loglic} to begin with (or {loglec}, if > the > > short vowel seems more natural). I can't > figure > > out {zo'e kau} in Lojban: {kau} attaches to > > interrogative words to signal indirect > questions, > > so maybe {ma kau} is meant: "I know who is > > learning Loglish." This misses the first half > of > > the English (except by implication -- if I > know > > who it is there must be someone). On the > other > > hand, without the {kau} in the original, we > get > > the not very illuminating "I know that (you > know > > who/someone it doesn't matter who) is > learning > > Loglish," which misses the second part. the > > problems carry over to the Loglish (I think > > {zo'e} is a bad choice here in any case, but > that > > seems to be idiosyncratic). > > Well, > > " > mi djuno ledu'u zo'e kau cilre la lojban. > > I know someone is learning Lojban, and I know > who it is. > " > > is straight from the Lojban introductory text > > http://ptolemy.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/less15.html > > so if there are problems with it, I'm not to > blame in this particular > instance ;-) Fascinating -- and a clear warning about short descripotions of words. {kau} is always defined as the indirect question marker, but it turns out that it is that very incidentally to its real role, for which there does not seem to be an ready term -- or description. It represents (except in the indirect question cases) an nglish cleft construction "it is ... that ..." rather efficiently when the lifted word is buried in deep enough. It differs from stress in having a fixed meaning (of a sort, at least), but performs one of stress's roles apparently. In this role, it conflicts with the use of indefinites, as in your example (and the book's) -- which is why defining that role is a bit hard to do. The problem with {zo'e} is just that its meaning (or hatever) has been specified so many ways that it is hard to figure out what it means in a particular case and here, where the meaning of the whole construction seems to depend on what {zo'e} means, this gets to be problematic. Assuming {zo'e} means only that there is a sumti (though I may not know one) that fills the gap to make a true claim, then that sumti might be {no da} for example (which is one of the reasons why many people say that that is not what {zo'e} means, despite what CLL says) and so it does not really say "there is someone." Other possible readings, which try to give {zo'e} some content, include "the obvious case" : "someone and you know who" in effect. Or "it doesn't matter who," which does not fit this case at all well, since not every value makes a true sentence and of those that do not every one is one I know about. Of course, this last also doe not consort well with the apparent meaning of {kau} either. That is why I say {zo'e} is usually a bad choice of words (until it gets cleaned up). > > la Ben cu murder lo chicken lo weapon fi’o > pliers > > Realtive order of {lo} and {fi'o} again (and > > maybe of {fi'o} and "weapon," but I have to > see > > how this plays out. > > You later claim that this cannot be a chicken > > with pliers, but the resolution appears to be > > semantic, not grammatical. Lojban would > insist > > on a grammatical disambiguation. > > Lojbanizing the use of fi'o yields > > " > la Ben cu murder lo chicken fi’o weapon lo > pliers > " > > Regarding your point about whose argument the > fi'o specifies -- I believe > this is unproblematic, > becaues the fi'o clearly tells whose argument > "lo pliers" fits into, and "lo > pliers" is clearly > fitting into *some* argument of "murder." To > have "lo pliers" fit into some > argument of "chicken" > one would have to use "be" or some other > similar mechanism, I believe. Quite right. But that means that, from the point of the parser, the FrameNet bits are unnecessary and that discussion is irrelevant at that point. At some point in interpretation (and, yes, I think the two are --or ought to be -- separate as much as possible, which is 100%) we learn that a weapon is an instrument or means, but that only because we already know that it is a peripheral argument of "murder." To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.