From lojban-out@lojban.org Thu Sep 01 18:02:13 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 27171 invoked from network); 2 Sep 2005 01:02:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m35.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 2 Sep 2005 01:02:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 2 Sep 2005 01:02:12 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1EAzwZ-0007UF-3n for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Thu, 01 Sep 2005 18:02:11 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1EAzu2-0007CA-JB; Thu, 01 Sep 2005 17:59:42 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Thu, 01 Sep 2005 17:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1EAztj-0007Bz-Ok for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Thu, 01 Sep 2005 17:59:15 -0700 Received: from web81306.mail.yahoo.com ([206.190.37.81]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1EAzti-0007Bs-4s for lojban-list@lojban.org; Thu, 01 Sep 2005 17:59:15 -0700 Received: (qmail 43587 invoked by uid 60001); 2 Sep 2005 00:59:12 -0000 Message-ID: <20050902005912.43585.qmail@web81306.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [68.88.32.165] by web81306.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 01 Sep 2005 17:59:12 PDT Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 17:59:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <8f2fd4aa05083110203971c210@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 X-Spam-Score: -1.5 (-) X-archive-position: 10475 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-eGroups-From: John E Clifford From: John E Clifford Reply-To: clifford-j@sbcglobal.net Subject: [lojban] Re: Orthography X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=_Z87eLezEF-8AKZDQgvL6mEs2taqrP_FH-DaaOveCq6A9jBzuA X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24856 The latest scheme for an alphabet for Lojban has some nice features and, as realized, a few problems. It is simple, based on a simple scheme (the 7-bit character patterns from watches and clocks, which I will represent decimally using the scheme from the binary ) . It pairs voiced and voiceless by mirror imaging, and marks stress by adding the top line to the unstressed forms. It includes period and comma, which play phonological roles in Lojban, as well as the apostrophe (or some such mark) which has an even more pronounced role. So it does indeed fit the language. However, these last three items are integrated with the normal letters, rather than having distinct forms to indicate their peculiar uses in Lojban. This is not necessarily a flaw, but, if it could be managed, distinctiveness would be a plus. More problematic is the fact that the given alphabet contains discontinuous letters, which, while not a problem in print (except perhaps for interpreting clusters), are a real pain in script (it is nice to have a script form here, but what is presented is not very good for a running hand). Finally, the presented system does not indicate a base line (the printed form looks like it uses the bottom line, the script the top) ; it does, however not contain any character not tied to whatever baseline we choose. As a detail, two of the characters repeat standard numerals, which is iffy – we probably shouldn’t do that if we can avoid it but, on the other hand, the contexts of occurrence will almost always be significantly different so no actual uncertainty need arise. If we were to take these objections seriously, we might start the process anew (though keeping what is unobjectionable in the present system – and the usual numbers). Of the 127 possible characters, 47 (by count, so I may have missed some) are discontinuous. If either the top line (64) or bottom line (1) is the base, then there are 13 more forms that are not based; if the center line (8) is taken as base, then only two forms drop out on this ground: the top and bottom lines alone. If the centerline is taken as base, it seems a good idea also not to use that line alone as a character, since it is easily confused with mere transitions in running hand. And finally, as a practical matter for all forms of writing, only one of each of the pairs of mirrored vertical lines, 2 and 4, 16 and 32, and 18 and 36, should be used, since without a horizontal attachment they are hard to distinguish. This knocks 53 possible characters out of consideration. Subtract further the ten numerals and the 22 unobjectionable characters on the list (actually, only 20, if we reserve the numeric forms) and we have 45 forms from which to extract 14 continuous characters. Of these, 24 do not touch one of the horizontal lines, while all the given ones touch all three. This is a minor matter and even less important for the diacritical marks, comma and period (and perhaps apostrophe). But in any case, we end up with 23 unused but usable characters (some of the categories above overlap). Since apostrophe and x do not really belong together and certainly not as listed, we can separate them and put apostrophe with comma and period. But comma and period are relatively rare while apostrophe is quite common, hence apostrophe should be simple, the upper vertical halfline (16 or 32 indifferently), say. The other two should be distinctive but more complex but not (as one possible line of chat would have it) more than 5 lines, since that would make what is a minor feature stand out too prominently. Perhaps comma should (following the suggestion for apostrophe) be just the lower vertical half line (2 or 4 indifferently). Period is, however more common than comma so should have the simpler form. In any case, there are all the lower (or upper) corners (3, 10, 5, 12) , cup (7) and cap (14) and Cs (11, 13) available – not too intrusive but distinctive. So, we need get the 9 remaining characters from the 23. The new A (and hence a) needs to be a character that exists both with and without the top line. 55, 60, and 63 are out because there capped forms are numerals. That leaves 58 (in inverted h), 59 (58 with a bottom line), 61 (the mirror of 59) and 62 (H). The vowel characters are asymmetric , so only 59 and 61 (for A and E) will work. However, the mirror imaging -- and, indeed, the pairing of the vowels altogether – does not make a lot of sense. I can imagine reasons to put i and u together and, for the same reasons, e and o, and a and y. Or i and e, u and o, and a and y. The rationale for the present groupings escapes me. (Note that 91 (E) and 27 (e) and 45 (a) are freed up to replace most of the items used to deal with the A-3 problem. Next we need four left-right mirror pairs: for bp, gk, zs, and nm. 62 and 126, being symmetric, are well out of this. So are 55 (square U), 63 (8 without the top), 118 (inverted 55) and 62 (H). 58 is out because its mirror is numeral 4, 82 is the mirror of numeral 7, 111 mirrors numeral 6, 122 mirrors 9, and 114 and 116 are arguably too close to numeral 7 (a half line dropping from the end). That leaves 59 and 61 (numeral 4 with a bottom line), 83 and 101 (square C), 90 and 108 (F), and 27 and 45 (inverted F) just freed. The new pb pair frees up the old p, 31 (mirror of numeral 6). This leaves x, which , not having a mate, need not be asymmetric and thus could be something like 62 (H, but would this be a problem for English speakers?) or any of the remaining forms. There are several other single forms remaining, in case we want to rethink the pairings of l and r, m and n, which, while sensible, are based on different principles from that for the first run of consonants. Now to see how to make this (or the original suggestion) into a good running script. To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.