From lojban-out@lojban.org Sat Sep 10 01:38:29 2005 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojban-out@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (qmail 37277 invoked from network); 10 Sep 2005 08:38:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (66.218.66.172) by m25.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 10 Sep 2005 08:38:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chain.digitalkingdom.org) (64.81.49.134) by mta4.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Sep 2005 08:38:28 -0000 Received: from lojban-out by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1EE0sX-0008Sp-Hj for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 10 Sep 2005 01:38:29 -0700 Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org ([64.81.49.134]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1EE0rC-0008Rn-Jc; Sat, 10 Sep 2005 01:37:11 -0700 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-list); Sat, 10 Sep 2005 01:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.52) id 1EE0qu-0008Rd-Ex for lojban-list-real@lojban.org; Sat, 10 Sep 2005 01:36:48 -0700 Received: from hobbiton.shire.net ([166.70.252.250]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.52) id 1EE0qm-0008RW-1W for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 10 Sep 2005 01:36:48 -0700 Received: from [69.236.65.18] (helo=[192.168.1.6]) by hobbiton.shire.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.51) id 1EE0qj-00008E-I5 for lojban-list@lojban.org; Sat, 10 Sep 2005 02:36:37 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v622) In-Reply-To: <20050908235419.68833.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050908235419.68833.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Message-Id: <204dac2319f2c8d4b3cc2c6f67568a58@xahlee.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 01:36:34 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.622) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 69.236.65.18 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: xah@xahlee.org X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on hobbiton.shire.net); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-archive-position: 10569 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Errors-to: lojban-list-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: xah@xahlee.org X-list: lojban-list X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Originating-IP: 64.81.49.134 X-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:12:0:0 X-eGroups-From: xah lee From: xah lee Reply-To: xah@xahlee.org Subject: [lojban] Re: lojban's difficulty X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=116389790; y=mkrv-q4HFPYDsJLeMbek0siw5kEYNwwx0N4q1kah0iDK8tBWgQ X-Yahoo-Profile: lojban_out X-Yahoo-Message-Num: 24951 i think that's a good argument. Though, on the whole i'm inclined to think that lojban is quite more difficult to learn because of its predicate logic basis. ... don't have particular points now, but perhaps will post later on. the lack of materials of lojban is so very true. I so much hope there's material like other foreign languages. (i.e. hello, good morning, how are you, where's the bathroom) The existing texts are all pretentious and computer sciency. i also agree very much the ideas by Christopher Zervic. (below) Xah xah@xahlee.org ∑ http://xahlee.org/ On Sep 8, 2005, at 4:54 PM, John E Clifford wrote: The main problem with oearning Lojban is the almost complete lack of teaching material. We have some devices for pounding in vocabulary -- which some people have found helpful but as many have found totally useless (and which are misleading in the form given). Given some reasonably decent teaching devices (or better, of course, some teachers)Lojban is no worse than any 0other language. The sort of classifications to which xah lee points are just Lojban's version of what in other languages comes up as gender or some similar thing (but, by the way, you don't need {loi}; {jisra} is "a quantity of juice" with the quantity uspecified so {lo jisra} is just some quantity of juice, just what is wanted. To be sure, juice is one of those things where it is hard to tell individual quantities from collectives of quantities, so {loi} also works.) ... ------- From: zervic@gmail.com Subject: [lojban] Re: lojban's difficulty Date: September 9, 2005 7:20:00 AM PDT To: lojban-list@lojban.org Reply-To: lojban-list@lojban.org On 9/8/05, John E Clifford wrote: > The main problem with oearning Lojban is the > almost complete lack of teaching material. The existing materials are full of highly artificial specimen texts. A wider body of translated literature, and original literature will help. Translating a movie script, something current, would help to develop a useable speaking pattern. I can see where LfB can be intimidating. For example, the section with loi and le and all the numbers is very confusing - and that's chapter FOUR. I don't know that a more 'natural' or Pimsleur-type approach would be ideal, so something new, in the middle, should fill the need. Most language instruction texts start by teaching the pleasantries - hello, thank you, you're welcome, good morning, good bye, etc. That type of thing is common to every person, and expressions that they use daily and can remember easily. Then even someone who knows nothing more than coi, do mo, ki'e, and co'o can say "I know a little Lojban" and thus feel some connection to the community as it were. Lord knows that's the case with Esperanto. Each successive lesson should blow the learner's mind only slightly. I realize however that the tendency whould be to teach the whole scheme as a scheme, but the problem with that is that Lojban would for the most part be unuseable until the whole scheme was learned. One other problem with the schematic approach, some people start to get the idea that "hey, I like this but I think I know an even better way to express that" and launch a reform project rather than remain in the Lojban circle. -- Christopher Zervic, Esq. ☄ To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to lojban-list-request@lojban.org with the subject unsubscribe, or go to http://www.lojban.org/lsg2/, or if you're really stuck, send mail to secretary@lojban.org for help.